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Thread: Do Americans Blacks Have DNA from an Englishman?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Are there examples of "old stock" Afro-Americans (from the USA, no recent African immigrants) with no European admixture at all?
    Iím sure there is. But my comment was in reference to English ancestry in particular.

  2. #12
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    Yes, but some of their European admix probably comes from Scots also, due to the high prevalence of Scottish plantation/slave owners in specific areas like Jamacia.

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  4. #13
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    This European ancestry exists because of the historical rape of Black American women, because of this historical injustice the African Americans also carry 15-30% European Y-DNA while their maternal haplogroups are entirely of West & Central African origin

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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    This European ancestry exists because of the historical rape of Black American women, because of this historical injustice the African Americans also carry 15-30% European Y-DNA while their maternal haplogroups are entirely of West & Central African origin
    It’s both ironic and somehow not when you consider the European admixture in the Black American gene pool and the relatively recent abolishment of miscegenation in the country.

    Any-who, I am said Black American with an R1b Y haplogroup and just under 2% Amerindian admixture according to 23andme.
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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    This European ancestry exists because of the historical rape of Black American women, because of this historical injustice the African Americans also carry 15-30% European Y-DNA while their maternal haplogroups are entirely of West & Central African origin
    On the whole this is the undeniable truth, especially in post-independence America, though even going back to the seventeenth-century it seems that the power dynamic was conducive to widespread rape of black females by white males, whereas white female bodies were much more heavily policed. However, not that it takes away from that violence, it's interesting to see that many African American lines go very far back into colonial American history, to a time where color boundaries were somewhat less rigid and interracial marriage, while still a highly marginalized practice, was not simply a euphemism for a much more violent type of relationship. As laws of hypodescent (one-drop) hardened, there was a much greater tendency for early mixed-race Americans (also, though less exclusively emerging from rape scenarios) to contribute to the general African American gene pool, rather than the white American gene pool which they were largely cut off from through de jure and de facto racial, cultural and economic segregation. For any who are interested, this dissertation on "Mulattoes in English Colonial America" sheds some light on the subject, though not from a DNA perspective: https://digitalassets.lib.berkeley.e...028E_13422.pdf

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  10. #16
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    Even if there were power relations between a "white master" and a "black slave woman", it doesn't have to equate actual rape at all. Many of the coloured women which had slave status still had some sort of relationship with the master or one of his sons. Some were even privileged because of their relationship relative to the other female slaves. If you read about slavery, not just that of Africans in America, but in general, the first thing you notice is that the status and living conditions did vary a lot, really a lot. There were slaves which were better off than many free people around them and there were slaves which lived in absolutely horrible circumstances. The same can be applied to African women in slavery in North America. There is no simple story of sadistic masters just raping and torturing their slaves. That could happen, which is bad enough, but the real situation was more complicated than that.

    And like passenger said, a lot of mixed people were just put into the "black category" by law and customs in the USA. You can find a lot of images of so called "black people", which would have been, if it wasn't the law of the time, without a doubt being able to become well integrated "whites". The situation is just the opposite of countries like Brazil, in which more attractive and rather white looking mixed people could, usually, become accepted members of the European community or at least their children could. That way a lot of Latin "whites" have minority Subsaharan African admixture exactly the same way as Afro-Americans have European admixture.

    The future of any society, population and ethnicity lies in the women and which children they give birth to. So its just logical that most competitive societies would make stricter rules for their women than their men if its about the choice of sexual partners. That too is not restricted to the racialist USA, but common throughout the world and part of the concept of hypergamy/hypergyny. Attractive "foreign" or simply "different" women being easier accepted as sexual partners of the own (ethnicity, religious group, social status etc.) males, than the loss of the own women to a foreign male. No group gets more offspring by giving its own women to a foreign male, but reduces it by 50 percent, while impregnating foreign women increases the own offspring by additional 50 percent in comparison to "only pure" sexual relationships. So nobody should wonder that throughout the world and to this day, the more successful societal rules and groups being more strict with their women than their men in this respect. What made the USA really different from most other nations is primarily that the "backflow" of mixed ancestry to the majority European community was usually prohibited, and this even quite strictly so ("one drop rule").

  11. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Even if there were power relations between a "white master" and a "black slave woman", it doesn't have to equate actual rape at all. Many of the coloured women which had slave status still had some sort of relationship with the master or one of his sons.
    It's considered rape because these women didn't have a choice in the matter, they couldn't just say no to their masters without repercussions.

    Some were even privileged because of their relationship relative to the other female slaves. If you read about slavery, not just that of Africans in America, but in general, the first thing you notice is that the status and living conditions did vary a lot, really a lot. There were slaves which were better off than many free people around them and there were slaves which lived in absolutely horrible circumstances.
    Sounds like you're trying to justify slavery.

    The same can be applied to African women in slavery in North America. There is no simple story of sadistic masters just raping and torturing their slaves. That could happen, which is bad enough, but the real situation was more complicated than that.
    The vast majority of white slave owners at the time were sadistic men who raped Black women and that's a documented fact.


    And like passenger said, a lot of mixed people were just put into the "black category" by law and customs in the USA. You can find a lot of images of so called "black people", which would have been, if it wasn't the law of the time, without a doubt being able to become well integrated "whites". The situation is just the opposite of countries like Brazil, in which more attractive and rather white looking mixed people could, usually, become accepted members of the European community or at least their children could. That way a lot of Latin "whites" have minority Subsaharan African admixture exactly the same way as Afro-Americans have European admixture.
    They were put in the black category only to preserve the genetic purity of Europeans in America.The Iberians were perhaps more lax in their racial attitude (still racists) compared to NW Europeans.
    Last edited by Ruderico; 06-15-2020 at 08:54 AM. Reason: removed personalisation of discussion (ToS 3.13)

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  13. #18
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    But wherever there is shadow there is also light, I do not want to gloss over the colonial politics of the Europeans but it had an advantage if this transatlantic transfer had not occurred if there were no music such as jazz, blues, rumba or rap or Creole cuisine all that would be did not originate in Africa or Europe. It could only arise in the New World through African, European and indigenous influences. Of course, you should always keep the story technical, what was right or wrong to learn from the mistakes in order to create a better future, but unfortunately this does not always work, see USA but also other parts of the world
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  14. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    It's considered rape because these women didn't have a choice in the matter, they couldn't just say no to their masters without repercussions.
    Probably by some interpretation from the modern US-American law, but not by common sense. It depended on the owners behaviour whether it was rape or not. You don't know what kind of relationship these two people had, so to say it was always rape is simply unjustified. Certainly rape did occur, even by the standards of the time or more general human standards, but to state its all rape because of the owner : slave relation is simply wrong. There are many cases from antiquity to modernity, in which owners : slaves had a marriage-like relationship, for which the description of rape as the cause of the offspring would be way off. Some even freed the woman and lived with her in an inofficial marriage afterwards.

    The vast majority of white slave owners at the time were sadistic men who raped Black women and that's a documented fact.
    I disagree. For every case you may provide I can provide one for a decent master which treated his slaves fairly well. That he treated his slaves well doesn't mean that the institution of slavery being justified, not at all. Because even if a master was a good one, nobody should depend on the mood of his master for his own well being and safety. These are two different things. But like a free life, a slave life too could differ a lot by the living conditions and opportunities provided. There were nominally "free white people" living a more destitute and dependent life than many colored slaves. An example would be European immigrants in indentured servitude. Of course, I want to repeat that doesn't justify slavery as an institution, but you have to put things into context, the context of the time and the way of life which all had, especially women.

    They were put in the black category only to preserve the genetic purity of Europeans in America.The Iberians were perhaps more lax in their racial attitude (still racists) compared to NW Europeans.
    That's true, sometimes even against the explicit will of the white father/parent. The Iberians and many others were no North American Protestants. This North American Protestantism is peculiar, because it made males less likely to have affairs with Indians, blacks or others, being more monogamous and chaste, being opponents of slavery and oppression, but at the same time wanting to be a people apart. This is really typical for their ("Yankee") spirit, everything must be ordered and ethical from their more fundamentalist Christian perspective. Usually those which were less so might have been sometimes even more brutal, but at the same time not as fanatic about "miscegenation" and mixed ancestry, more accepting overall.
    Also, the Protestant British settlers came as families, with a strong female position in the family. This made it much more difficult for the males, which were bound by Protestant ethics too, to have affairs and concubines. Iberians and others often sent primarily males, which had therefore to take what was available and they had no such strong ethical norms and close knit, small scale communities of believers, including own females, to control them.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-15-2020 at 03:20 PM. Reason: Typo

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  16. #20
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    There were significant differences. In Brazil we still can find a continuum from 100% African autosomal to less than 1% because Brazilian history and admixture was far more complex than in North America. Brazil was the biggest and the longest slave Empire in terms of African demography, the total number of Africans transported to the American Continent - almost 5 million to Brazil and only 400,000 to US, the size of territory and time of traffic and slavery. The same Empire dominated both margins of the South Atlantic and the Colonial male population who arrived in Brazil was small compared with North America, in Brazil they were mainstream Conquistadores, all Catholic Portuguese in Brazil could easily become Fidalgos far richer than in Portugal with the same language, religion, culture, status and State and they built an extremely big aristocratic and senhorial Tropical society, an extremely big and unequal society from a very small initial base. We have almost 15 times more Medieval Portuguese Y-DNA in Brazil than in Portugal but the mtDNA is more or less a third Euro, African and Amerindian, so we have three times the total number of Portuguese mtDNA in Brazil than in Portugal, including the Azores, another big difference because the Native American mtDNA has always grown in Brazil. Let's face the reality, an extremely brutal and violent society used to advance killing Moors, Jews, Africans and Amerindians but all were more or less incorporated into a new big population.
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