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Thread: What is the origins of the Slavs and their genetic relation to the Polish people?

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    What is the origins of the Slavs and their genetic relation to the Polish people?

    Where is the Slavic urheimat and what is the genetic relation of proto-Slavs with modern-day Poles? Are Poles just Slavicized or do they descend from Slavs?

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    I'd wait for the upcoming studies with Slavic samples from different periods, right now we can only infer based on Y-DNA or autosomal results from neighbouring regions.

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    I think Michal nailed it in a post a month or so ago when he said they probably lived around the northern border of Ukraine just north of the Scythians and were nicknamed the Scythian farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I think Michal nailed it in a post a month or so ago when he said they probably lived around the northern border of Ukraine just north of the Scythians and were nicknamed the Scythian farmers.
    Oh, so do you think Poles and other West Slavs descend from the proto-Slavs or are they Slavicized? I was wondering what these papers had to add to the debate.

    http://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/node/82059
    http://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/new...antiquity.html
    https://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/ne...ion-platform-e

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I think Michal nailed it in a post a month or so ago when he said they probably lived around the northern border of Ukraine just north of the Scythians and were nicknamed the Scythian farmers.
    Chernoles?
    "The Scythian-Farmers seem to be identical with the archaeological culture known as Chernoles, which has been identified with the Iron Age Slavs."
    https://www.livius.org/articles/people/scythians-sacae/

    "on the other side of the Borysthenes the tribe nearest to the sea is the tribe of the Woodlands; and north of these dwell Scythian farmers, whom the Greek dwellers on the Hypanis river (who call themselves Olbiopolitae) call Borystheneitae. These farming Scythians inhabit a land stretching eastward a three days' journey to a river called Panticapes,3 and northward as far as an eleven days' voyage up the Borysthenes; and north of these the land is uninhabited for a long way"
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...dotus/4B*.html

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    Also, do you mind linking the post where Michal talks about this? I’m pretty new to this site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Chernoles?
    "The Scythian-Farmers seem to be identical with the archaeological culture known as Chernoles, which has been identified with the Iron Age Slavs."
    https://www.livius.org/articles/people/scythians-sacae/

    "on the other side of the Borysthenes the tribe nearest to the sea is the tribe of the Woodlands; and north of these dwell Scythian farmers, whom the Greek dwellers on the Hypanis river (who call themselves Olbiopolitae) call Borystheneitae. These farming Scythians inhabit a land stretching eastward a three days' journey to a river called Panticapes,3 and northward as far as an eleven days' voyage up the Borysthenes; and north of these the land is uninhabited for a long way"
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...dotus/4B*.html
    So does that mean Poles were Slavicized by an elite expanding group of Slavs then, if Slavs expanded from Ukraine and of Poles do have continuity to the Bronze Age?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    So does that mean Poles were Slavicized by an elite expanding group of Slavs then, if Slavs expanded from Ukraine and of Poles do have continuity to the Bronze Age?
    Poles definetly have a lot of Slavic ancestry and probably in most cases around 70-95% but the exact percentage is hard to say because it very much depends on the used reference groups and how Pre-Slavic people in Poland exactly looked like.

    We have some early Slavic samples from Avar Hungary , early Medieval Russia and Czechia. They are all very close to modern day Poles especially in the East. The probably least mixed sample Hun_Avar_Szolad_2 is a bit closer to Belarusians and Southwest Russians but still very close to Poles.

    Distance to: HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
    0.02285860 Belarusian
    0.02419895 Lithuanian_PA
    0.02541556 Russian_Voronez
    0.02613675 Russian_Smolensk
    0.02663861 Russian_Orel
    0.02674336 Ukrainian
    0.02703831 Polish



    Distance to: CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569
    0.02898714 Slovakian
    0.03067406 Moldovan_o
    0.03118426 Polish
    0.03170253 Hungarian
    0.03178069 Czech
    0.03206185 Ukrainian

    Distance to: RUS_Sunghir_MA:Sunghir6
    0.01833350 Ukrainian
    0.01871458 Russian_Orel
    0.01925938 Russian_Voronez
    0.02129694 Cossack_Ukrainian
    0.02137321 Belarusian
    0.02201336 Russian_Smolensk
    0.02204725 Russian_Kursk
    0.02253362 Polish
    0.02696264 Russian_Tver

    It is hard to say how much actual direct continuity there is in the region. Western, southern and eastern genetic influences after the Bronze Age could create a population very similar to Bronze Age Poles again even when there would be no significant direct contribution by BA groups from Poland. But the Proto-Slavic homeland likely included parts of eastern Poland and Proto-Slavs would be also influenced by Para-Slavic/Non-Slavic groups from modern day Poland. So i assume, that there must be some (partial) continuity since the Bronze Age in Poland. Definetly more than for eample in South and Central Russia.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 06-17-2020 at 12:56 AM.

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    Byzantine Empire Empire of Trebizond Greek Macedonia Greece
    They are mostly slavs but some areas/provinces might have a Celtic,Germanic or Baltic drift..witch is normal since Poland is a big country.
    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 1.5780% / 0.01578004
    40.2 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
    32.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    16.2 Levant_Baqah_BA
    11.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 2.8082% / 0.02808208
    67.2 Greek_Trabzon
    24.2 Samaritan
    7.4 Georgian_Imer
    1.2 Sardinian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    Oh, so do you think Poles and other West Slavs descend from the proto-Slavs or are they Slavicized? I was wondering what these papers had to add to the debate.

    http://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/node/82059
    http://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/new...antiquity.html
    https://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/ne...ion-platform-e
    Many Poles are genetically much closer to East Slavs than to other West Slavs. I would even say a lot of Poles from the eastern part of the country are almost indistinguishable from Ukrainians, Belarusians and West Russians.
    On the othersie many Southwest Ukrainians cluster closer with Slovaks and Hungarians than with Russians or Belarusians for example.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 06-17-2020 at 12:52 AM.

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