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Thread: What is the origins of the Slavs and their genetic relation to the Polish people?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    The Goths either originated in southern Scandinavia or northern Poland and later in the Carpathian basin and in the Crimea (Ostrogothic) a Huns/Sarmatian admixture, as some archaeological genetic examples show. The Visigoths are yet another story and were formative for the Iberian Peninsula until the conquest of the Moors.
    The Goths seem to have come down from Scandinavia and Ostrogoths and Visigoths are just different branches from the same root/Gothic Urstamm which split at some point, like many people do for a variety of reasons.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Goths seem to have come down from Scandinavia and Ostrogoths and Visigoths are just different branches from the same root/Gothic Urstamm which split at some point, like many people do for a variety of reasons.
    scholar have 3 scenario's

    1....in the book ...the well spring of the goths, by ingermar nordgren.......it states origins as scania (sweden)

    2...in the book ...history of the goths, by herwig wolfram .....it states from modern gdansk to the nogat river in poland and they where originally called gottones

    3....others state, from the island of Gotland ( goth land ) .............settle over time in scania and poland

    I have never found an answer


    Visigoths are known as pure goths mixed initially with some Vandili tribes of northern poland

    Ostrogoths are mixed with sarmatians, thracians and maybe scythians once they reached the black sea and settled there for over 200 years

    Visigoths went to iberia with the vandals .............ostrogoths went to the balkans and italy

    That is what I recall


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  4. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    scholar have 3 scenario's

    1....in the book ...the well spring of the goths, by ingermar nordgren.......it states origins as scania (sweden)

    2...in the book ...history of the goths, by herwig wolfram .....it states from modern gdansk to the nogat river in poland and they where originally called gottones

    3....others state, from the island of Gotland ( goth land ) .............settle over time in scania and poland

    I have never found an answer


    Visigoths are known as pure goths mixed initially with some Vandili tribes of northern poland

    Ostrogoths are mixed with sarmatians, thracians and maybe scythians once they reached the black sea and settled there for over 200 years

    Visigoths went to iberia with the vandals .............ostrogoths went to the balkans and italy

    That is what I recall
    Ostrogoths and Visigoths were a folk army on the march. They were centered around an aristocratic warrior elite, with a large base of Gothic commoners and all kinds of allies which accompanied them. Some of these allies were just there for one battle, but others were among them for long campaigns and eventually, some of them "became Gothic" or at least mixed with "original Goths". You can observe that for both Ostrogoths and Visigoths, though some might say Ostrogoths were more mixed, yet that doesn't mean Visigoths hadn't their mix too.
    Like for both Gothic tribes Sarmatian cavalry allies were of importance, so were Pannonian and Roman renegades. The more desperate the situation, the more likely you accept even less respectable allies and marriages I'd say - not saying I know how they perceived different people, but that's a common theme throughout history and I don't think prehistory was any different. If you are desperate you don't ask which hand could help you.

    Considering that we find the same element in Lombards and Goths, more mixed in the latter, we can be pretty sure that the origin story from Scandinavia is correct. The admixture level rises from Lombard -> Visigoth -> Ostrogoth, but in the end all three got mixed. Whether they incorporated local people early on in what is now Poland is up to debate and even if they mixed there are several possible scenarios. Like some mixed people might have stayed behind and not moved on, but became part of a later Slavic federation and so on. Without tests you never know for sure. But that Goths, especially Ostrogoths, were more open to mixture and large scale alliances with different people was long known, from the physical remains already.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-25-2020 at 06:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Ostrogoths and Visigoths were a folk army on the march. They were centered around an aristocratic warrior elite, with a large base of Gothic commoners and all kinds of allies which accompanied them. Some of these allies were just there for one battle, but others were among them for long campaigns and eventually, some of them "became Gothic" or at least mixed with "original Goths". You can observe that for both Ostrogoths and Visigoths, though some might say Ostrogoths were more mixed, yet that doesn't mean Visigoths hadn't their mix too.
    Like for both Gothic tribes Sarmatian cavalry allies were of importance, so were Pannonian and Roman renegades. The more desperate the situation, the more likely you accept even less respectable allies and marriages I'd say - not saying I know how they perceived different people, but that's a common theme throughout history and I don't think prehistory was any different. If you are desperate you don't ask which hand could help you.

    Considering that we find the same element in Lombards and Goths, more mixed in the latter, we can be pretty sure that the origin story from Scandinavia is correct. The admixture level rises from Lombard -> Visigoth -> Ostrogoth, but in the end all three got mixed. Whether they incorporated local people early on in what is now Poland is up to debate and even if they mixed there are several possible scenarios. Like some mixed people might have stayed behind and not moved on, but became part of a later Slavic federation and so on. Without tests you never know for sure. But that Goths, especially Ostrogoths, were more open to mixture and large scale alliances with different people was long known, from the physical remains already.
    Interesting would be to see DNA differences between the visigoths and ostrogoths ......................not sure if lombards ( clearly from scania sweden ) left a mark as they where premixed with the Rutuli once they reached Germany


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  7. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    ..........not sure if lombards ( clearly from scania sweden ) left a mark as they where premixed with the Rutuli once they reached Germany
    What do you mean? Lombards settled mostly in Italy and like the recent study has proven began to mix with some Italian/Roman elites over time. Before that they were in Pannonia and competed with the Gepids and Avars. Little of them reached Germany proper, rather indirectly via more modern Italian admixture. The Rutuli were an ancient people from Italia as far as I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    What do you mean? Lombards settled mostly in Italy and like the recent study has proven began to mix with some Italian/Roman elites over time. Before that they were in Pannonia and competed with the Gepids and Avars. Little of them reached Germany proper, rather indirectly via more modern Italian admixture. The Rutuli were an ancient people from Italia as far as I know.
    I am saying , that the ostrogoths arrived in north Italy eighty years before the lombards with more people than what the lombards arrived with even though the lombards stayed ( existed ) for many centuries

    Lombards , first stopped around eastern Austria.
    488: Langobard attested in Lower Austria, which is essentially depopulated
    489: Conquest of the valley of the river Morava, east of Vindobona (Vienna)
    567: Alboin defeats the Gepids
    572 invasion of Italy


    Lombards destroyed the ostrogoths when they arrived, but did they kill off all the goths or did the goths already breed with north italians as theodoric decreed
    Last edited by vettor; 06-26-2020 at 02:31 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    I am saying , that the ostrogoths arrived in north Italy eighty years before the lombards with more people than what the lombards arrived with even though the lombards stayed ( existed ) for many centuries

    Lombards , first stopped around eastern Austria.
    488: Langobard attested in Lower Austria, which is essentially depopulated
    489: Conquest of the valley of the river Morava, east of Vindobona (Vienna)
    567: Alboin defeats the Gepids
    572 invasion of Italy



    Lombards destroyed the ostrogoths when they arrived, but did they kill off all the goths or did the goths already breed with north italians as theodoric decreed
    Alboin and his Langobards/Lombards invaded Italy in 568, not 572.

    Byzantine victories (Belisarius and Narses) destroyed the Ostrogoths in Italy, at least as a viable ethnicity.

    Individual Ostrogoths have been recorded as surviving in the later Byzantine Exarchate of Ravenna.

    Individual Ostrogoths probably survived among the Langobards/Lombards too.
    Last edited by Cascio; 06-28-2020 at 10:30 AM.

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