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Thread: What is the origins of the Slavs and their genetic relation to the Polish people?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I think Michal nailed it in a post a month or so ago when he said they probably lived around the northern border of Ukraine just north of the Scythians and were nicknamed the Scythian farmers.
    Well, I am not sure if those Scythian farmers spoke Pre-Proto-Slavic (rather then Scythian or an unknown Post-Chernoles dialect). If so, then this Pre-Proto-Slavic language was likely brought to them with some migrants coming from further north (Milograd culture). Here is a recent post in which I discuss it in more detail:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post676946

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    I'm expecting similar auDNA results and non-Slavic Y-DNA clades from Germanic-speaking Goths and Vandals. Nothing else...

    Distance to: HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ22
    0.02936321 Dutch
    0.03077981 Swedish
    0.03097666 Icelandic
    0.03213266 Norwegian
    I agree that we should see many samples resembling that one shown in your post. However, like with the Longobards in Hungary and Italy, we should expect some local non-Germanic admixture in at least some samples, especially in Ukraine, but also in Poland. If speculating based on the available mtDNA and preliminary Y-DNA data we have for Wielbark (Kowalewko and Masłomęcz), those people forming the local pre-Gothic substratum in Poland are likely to have been significantly shifted towards EEF (when compared with modern Poles), but let's wait and see.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    Why do you think the results from these studies show continuity if Poles aren't native to Poland?
    Apart from the huge problems with distinguishing ancient Slavic and non-Slavic populations (as already explained by Coldmountains), it all depends on how you define continuity and discontinuity. If only 5% or 30% of modern Polish genetic ancestry derive from the Pre-Medieval (Iron Age) population in Poland, with the remaining 95% or 70% coming from a relatively similar population that lived in one of the neighboring regions, will you classify this as continuity or discontinuity. And what if this ratio was close to 50-50?

    Yet another problem is related to the question of whether we talk about the genetics or language. We certainly have some very significant genetic continuity in modern Turkey, even when going back to the Mesolithic (if not to the Upper Paleolithic). Does it mean that the first Turkic-speaking people in Turkey were autochthones? The same question applies to the first Slavs in Poland, even if the level of genetic continuity seems to have been significantly smaller in Poland than in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    Also, weren't the two early Slavs from Czechia mistaken as Czech Bell Beakers, hinting at genetic continuity?
    All radiocarbon-dated Bell Beaker samples from Czechia (and Poland) can easily be distinguished from the Medieval or Modern Czech samples.
    See this for at least some partial explanation of those problems with ancient Czech samples:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post661031

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    So if east Poles are very similar to Ukrainians, Belarusians, and West Russians, who do north, south, and western Poles cluster close with?
    The Western Poles land somewhere between those "core" Slavs and people showing much more of Western ("Celto-Germanic") admixture, like the Czechs or Eastern Germans.
    Similarly, the Southern Poles are also significantly "shifted west", but they also frequently show some additional southern (Balkan/Carpathian) admixture that places them somewhere between the above-mentioned "core" Slavs and the Slovaks, Czechs and Hungarians (and in some cases close to the Ruthenians who likely have a significant portion of the Vlach ancestry)

    Quote Originally Posted by rozenfeld View Post
    Actually, thinking about it: are there any uncremated remains of ancient Slavic peoples? There could have been cases when for some reasons remains were not cremated? Does anyone know?
    Well, if counting the Avar Slavc female sample Av2 from Pannonia as ethnically/genetically Slavic, then we have at least one ancient Slavic sample of good quality dated to the late 6th century.
    On David's PCA, this sample (the red dot on the right) lands exactly among the samples from the above-mentioned "core" Slavic populations (see the red circle), while her son Av1 (the other red dot, shifted left) is significantly shifted towards west or south-west (so he lands among the Slovaks and Western/Southern Poles), which makes it quite likely that the father of Av1 was of much more Western (Germanic?) ancestry. Please note that the PCA lacks any modern samples from the Balkans, so this is why the "southern" admixture in some West Slavic populations (like the Slovaks, Czechs or Hungarians) is not seen that well.
    https://i.ibb.co/fnmrhkq/PCA-Slavic-b.png

    And here is another PCA graph (I guess this one was made by user LukaszM) showing the position of both the Early Slavic female Av2 and her son Av1 (likely born in Pannonia) in relation to modern European populations:
    https://i.ibb.co/N9FtXJm/PCA-Slavic-a.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Well, I am not sure if those Scythian farmers spoke Pre-Proto-Slavic (rather then Scythian or an unknown Post-Chernoles dialect). If so, then this Pre-Proto-Slavic language was likely brought to them with some migrants coming from further north (Milograd culture). Here is a recent post in which I discuss it in more detail:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post676946
    I also think it is unlikely the so called "Scythian Farmers" spoke Proto-Slavic else we should see a bigger Scythian linguistic substrate in Slavic languages and based on the Balto-Slavic-like admix among Ukrainian Scythians there was likely mixing in both directions so the "Scythian Farmers" should be a Balto-Slavic-like group shifted towards Scythians but early Slavs don't seem to have such kind of shift. Rather early Slavs seem to be one a cline between Baltic_IA and Balkan_IA groups.

    Target: HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
    Distance: 2.1844% / 0.02184438
    45.6 Baltic_IA:Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V12_1
    33.6 Baltic_IA:Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V11_1
    20.6 HRV_IA:I3313
    0.2 Baltic_IA:Baltic_EST_IA:s19_X04_1
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 06-17-2020 at 03:57 PM.

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    I have a question for those more knowledgeable on the matter...
    Is there any account about the early Slavs or the proto-Slavs calling themselves Slavs?
    Or to be more exact, is the name Slav an ethnonym or an exonym applied by others?
    Do we know that those people ever called themselves Slavs?

    I am asking this because the names that appear in the writings of the Eastern Romans in correlation with the Slavs, most often than not are names related to rivers so it seems.

    For example, several tribes in the Balkans recorded in the 'Miracles of St.Demetrius' show this characteristic applied by the Eastern Romans:
    -Strymoniti, tribe mentioned in the account that is named by the river Strymon or modern Struma.
    -Rynhini, I am not quite sure for this one however I remember I read a while ago that this tribe was named by an unidentified river recorded by the name Rynhos, somewhere in the vicinity of the Halkidiki peninsula.
    -Baiounitai or Vaiounitai that seem to have been named by the river Aias, Vjos in Albanian, Băiasa in Aromanian and Vaiusa or Vojusha in the Balkan Slavic languages.

    There might be other such tribes which I can't remember now so feel free to contribute if you find such a connection.

    I am writing all this because there is an obvious connection between Viscla, the name of the river Vistula as written by Jordanes in his Getica and Sclavi or Sclaveni, the name applied by the Eastern Romans.
    I know I am thinking loud and maybe someone can refute this but could this name have arrived to the Romans through a Gothic agent, designating people that lived by the Vistula river or as Jordanes called it Viscla?
    Last edited by Aspar; 06-17-2020 at 04:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Apart from the huge problems with distinguishing ancient Slavic and non-Slavic populations (as already explained by Coldmountains), it all depends on how you define continuity and discontinuity. If only 5% or 30% of modern Polish genetic ancestry derive from the Pre-Medieval (Iron Age) population in Poland, with the remaining 95% or 70% coming from a relatively similar population that lived in one of the neighboring regions, will you classify this as continuity or discontinuity. And what if this ratio was close to 50-50?

    Yet another problem is related to the question of whether we talk about the genetics or language. We certainly have some very significant genetic continuity in modern Turkey, even when going back to the Mesolithic (if not to the Upper Paleolithic). Does it mean that the first Turkic-speaking people in Turkey were autochthones? The same question applies to the first Slavs in Poland, even if the level of genetic continuity seems to have been significantly smaller in Poland than in Turkey.


    All radiocarbon-dated Bell Beaker samples from Czechia (and Poland) can easily be distinguished from the Medieval or Modern Czech samples.
    See this for at least some partial explanation of those problems with ancient Czech samples:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post661031
    Thanks for this. How do we know Poles weren’t Slavicized?

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    The Scythian sample MJ14 from Ukraine seems to be of mostly "Scythian Farmer" origin and maybe has ancestry from an even more northern group. He is also closest to Ukrainians and Russians from Kursk but shows an Sarmatian-like shift either because of direct Scythian ancestry or because he has ancestry from an more eastern Balto-Slavic group.
    Target: Scythian_UKR:MJ14
    Distance: 3.9110% / 0.03910984
    70.8 Baltic_IA
    16.4 Balkan_IA
    12.8 Sarmatian

    Distance to: Scythian_UKR:MJ14
    0.03993297 Russian_Kursk:RussianKursk9
    0.04210182 Ukrainian:UKR-1291
    0.04213337 Ukrainian:UKR-2021
    0.04252808 Ukrainian:UCH945_ukrainian_Tsherk
    0.04263663 Ukrainian:Ukrainian15
    0.04266624 Moldovan_o:Moldovan_V13693
    0.04332824 Polisholish18
    0.04340927 Russian_Kursk:russianKursk6
    0.04398590 Polisholish23
    0.04418797 Polisholish5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    How do we know Poles weren’t Slavicized?
    I guess what you want to know is: How do we know that the Pre-Medieval inhabitants of Poland weren't Slavicized "culturally" with no significant population influx (or with no genetic admixture coming from outside)?

    Such a hypothetical scenario can be safely ruled out based on modern DNA alone. Both the very young age of many "common Slavic" Y-DNA subclades shared by many different modern Slavic populations from different parts of Europe and the autosomal results showing that the length of the IBD (identical by descent) segments shared by all modern Slavic-speaking populations indicate that Western, Eastern and Southern Slavs share relatively recent common ancestry. Importantly, all these results are perfectly consistent with the Early Slavic territorial expansion taking place around 500 AD and the Proto-Slavs originating from a relatively small territory/population. Here is what Ralph and Coop (2013) wrote about the results of their autosomal analysis (https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...pbio.1001555):

    One of the striking patterns we see is the relatively high level of sharing of IBD between pairs of individuals across eastern Europe, as high or higher than that observed within other, much smaller populations. This is consistent with these individuals having a comparatively large proportion of ancestry drawn from a relatively small population that expanded over a large geographic area. The ‘‘smooth’’ estimates of Figure 4 (and more generally Figures 5 and S17) suggest that this increase in ancestry stems from around 1,000–2,000 ya, since during this time pairs of eastern individuals are expected to share a substantial number of common ancestors, while this is only true of pairs of noneastern individuals if they are from the same population. For example, even individuals from widely separated eastern populations share about the same amount of IBD as do two Irish individuals (see Figure S3), suggesting that this ancestral population may have been relatively small. This evidence is consistent with the idea that these populations derive a substantial proportion of their ancestry from various groups that expanded during the ‘‘migration period’’ from the fourth through ninth centuries [51]."
    The so-called "common Slavic" Y-DNA subclades of relatively young age constitute nearly 70% of all Y-DNA lineages in modern Poland, but we don't know whether this ratio was significantly different in the Early Medieval period, ie. we don't know how many of those modern "Slavic" and "non-Slavic" lineages came to Poland in more recent times.
    Last edited by Michał; 06-17-2020 at 05:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    I guess what you want to know is: How do we know that the Pre-Medieval inhabitants of Poland weren't Slavicized "culturally" with no significant population influx (or with no genetic admixture coming from outside)?

    Such a hypothetical scenario can be safely ruled out based on modern DNA alone. Both the very young age of many "common Slavic" Y-DNA subclades shared by many different modern Slavic populations from different parts of Europe and the autosomal results showing that the length of the IBD (identical by descent) segments shared by all modern Slavic-speaking populations indicate that Western, Eastern and Southern Slavs share relatively recent common ancestry. Importantly, all these results are perfectly consistent with the Early Slavic territorial expansion taking place around 500 AD and the Proto-Slavs originating from a relatively small territory/population. Here is what Ralph and Coop (2013) wrote about the results of their autosomal analysis (https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...pbio.1001555):



    The so-called "common Slavic" Y-DNA subclades of relatively young age constitute nearly 70% of all Y-DNA lineages in modern Poland, but we don't know whether this ratio was significantly different in the Early Medieval period, ie. we don't know how many of those modern "Slavic" and "non-Slavic" lineages came to Poland in more recent times.
    I’ve seen a lot of people claim recently that Proto-Slavic was from between the Oder and Vistula rivers (which is why I asked the thread question because I’ve seen claims that Slavic either comes from Poland or between Belarus and Ukraine so I wanted to know what was the best theory based on the most recent genetics) because some Tollense Valley warriors show genetic drift with modern-day northern Slavs.

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