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Thread: What is my father, genetically?

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    What is my father, genetically?

    Background:

    My father is a white Southerner and his ancestors were relatively poor (they were sharecroppers). From looking at his ancestry, he mostly descends from English, Welsh, Irish, and Scottish colonizers of Virginia and North Carolina in the 1600s. However, a lot of the English and Scottish colonizers in the South were second sons of English nobility.

    "North Carolina’s earliest settlers were the second and third sons of aristocratic English families, former English indentured servants, and German Palatines fleeing war." - Ancestry.com

    I'm guessing a lot of aristocratic English families were originally of Norman descent and I would say about 1/2 of the last names in my father's tree were of Norman origin (the other half being a mix of Old English, Welsh, and Gaelic last names). I have found some Norman ancestors in his tree as well, but a lot of my ancestors I can't trace back 1700. Even the ones I can trace back, I usually can't get back 14-1300s. However, the few ones I could were a large part Norman.

    Genetics:

    Ancestry.com says he is 59% England, Wales, and Northwestern Europe and 24% Ireland and Scotland. 23&Me says he's 81.8% British & Irish. However, I would've thought he'd show more French ancestry since a lot of his ancestors were English aristocrats with French last names.

    Here's his K13 results:

    Population

    North_Atlantic
    49.85 Pct
    Baltic
    20.90 Pct
    West_Med
    14.68 Pct
    West_Asian
    5.17 Pct
    East_Med
    5.63 Pct
    Red_Sea
    0.97 Pct
    South_Asian
    -
    East_Asian
    0.81 Pct
    Siberian
    0.22 Pct
    Amerindian
    0.98 Pct
    Oceanian
    0.46 Pct
    Northeast_African
    0.33 Pct
    Sub-Saharan
    -

    Oracle:
    #
    Population (source)
    Distance
    1
    Southeast_English
    2.87
    2
    Southwest_English
    3.62
    3
    Orcadian
    4.93
    4
    South_Dutch
    5.37
    5
    West_Scottish
    5.54
    6
    Irish
    5.63
    7
    North_Dutch
    6.41
    8
    West_German
    6.74
    9
    Danish
    6.91
    10
    North_German
    7.8
    11
    Norwegian
    8.88
    12
    French
    9.42
    13
    Swedish
    11.05
    14
    Austrian
    13.92
    15
    East_German
    14.89
    16
    Spanish_Cataluna
    16.17
    17
    North_Swedish
    16.67
    18
    Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    17.3
    19
    Southwest_French
    17.6
    20
    Spanish_Galicia
    17.86

    #

    Primary Population (source)
    Secondary Population (source)
    Distance
    1

    81.7%
    West_Scottish
    +
    18.3%
    North_Italian
    @
    1.64
    2

    94.8%
    Southwest_English
    +
    5.2%
    Lebanese_Druze
    @
    1.7
    3

    63.8%
    West_Scottish
    +
    36.2%
    French
    @
    1.72
    4

    93.4%
    Southwest_English
    +
    6.6%
    Italian_Jewish
    @
    1.73
    5

    77.8%
    Irish
    +
    22.2%
    Spanish_Murcia
    @
    1.74
    6

    92.8%
    Southwest_English
    +
    7.2%
    Ashkenazi
    @
    1.75
    7

    93.9%
    Southwest_English
    +
    6.1%
    Tunisian_Jewish
    @
    1.77
    8

    93.4%
    Southwest_English
    +
    6.6%
    Sephardic_Jewish
    @
    1.79
    9

    95.1%
    Southwest_English
    +
    4.9%
    Lebanese_Christian
    @
    1.79
    10

    77.4%
    West_Scottish
    +
    22.6%
    Portuguese
    @
    1.79
    11

    78.1%
    West_Scottish
    +
    21.9%
    Spanish_Murcia
    @
    1.79
    12

    94%
    Southwest_English
    +
    6%
    Libyan_Jewish
    @
    1.82
    13

    84.6%
    West_Scottish
    +
    15.4%
    Tuscan
    @
    1.82
    14

    95%
    Southwest_English
    +
    5%
    Samaritan
    @
    1.84
    15

    94.9%
    Southwest_English
    +
    5.1%
    Palestinian
    @
    1.84
    16

    80.4%
    Orcadian
    +
    19.6%
    Spanish_Murcia
    @
    1.85
    17

    75.5%
    West_Scottish
    +
    24.5%
    Spanish_Cataluna
    @
    1.86
    18

    93.7%
    Southwest_English
    +
    6.3%
    Algerian_Jewish
    @
    1.87
    19

    94.5%
    Southwest_English
    +
    5.5%
    Cyprian
    @
    1.87
    20

    91.7%
    Southwest_English
    +
    8.3%
    Italian_Abruzzo
    @
    1.9


    K36 results:
    Population

    Amerindian
    -
    Arabian
    0.60 Pct
    Armenian
    -
    Basque
    2.32 Pct
    Central_African
    -
    Central_Euro
    7.29 Pct
    East_African
    -
    East_Asian
    -
    East_Balkan
    0.55 Pct
    East_Central_Asian
    -
    East_Central_Euro
    4.30 Pct
    East_Med
    -
    Eastern_Euro
    2.60 Pct
    Fennoscandian
    8.14 Pct
    French
    7.36 Pct
    Iberian
    14.39 Pct
    Indo-Chinese
    -
    Italian
    11.20 Pct
    Malayan
    -
    Near_Eastern
    -
    North_African
    -
    North_Atlantic
    16.55 Pct
    North_Caucasian
    2.77 Pct
    North_Sea
    19.11 Pct
    Northeast_African
    -
    Oceanian
    -
    Omotic
    -
    Pygmy
    -
    Siberian
    -
    South_Asian
    -
    South_Central_Asian
    -
    South_Chinese
    -
    Volga-Ural
    1.55 Pct
    West_African
    -
    West_Caucasian
    0.44 Pct
    West_Med
    0.82 Pct


    What does his results look like genetically and does his results suggest he's French and Norman or English?

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    Background:

    My father is a white Southerner and his ancestors were relatively poor (they were sharecroppers). From looking at his ancestry, he mostly descends from English, Welsh, Irish, and Scottish colonizers of Virginia and North Carolina in the 1600s. However, a lot of the English and Scottish colonizers in the South were second sons of English nobility.

    "North Carolina’s earliest settlers were the second and third sons of aristocratic English families, former English indentured servants, and German Palatines fleeing war." - Ancestry.com

    I'm guessing a lot of aristocratic English families were originally of Norman descent and I would say about 1/2 of the last names in my father's tree were of Norman origin (the other half being a mix of Old English, Welsh, and Gaelic last names). I have found some Norman ancestors in his tree as well, but a lot of my ancestors I can't trace back 1700. Even the ones I can trace back, I usually can't get back 14-1300s. However, the few ones I could were a large part Norman.

    Genetics:

    Ancestry.com says he is 59% England, Wales, and Northwestern Europe and 24% Ireland and Scotland. 23&Me says he's 81.8% British & Irish. However, I would've thought he'd show more French ancestry since a lot of his ancestors were English aristocrats with French last names.
    As we're often pointing out on this forum, it's very difficult to accurately distinguish between NW European populations in DNA tests. You're right that aristocratic English families typically had Norman descent (the surviving Anglo-Saxon upper class was dispossessed after 1066), and if you follow the trees you'll see the same names popping up on lines throughout the country over many centuries. I once posted about some of these Norman families who appear in my own tree here. If I recall correctly there were some replies that might speak to your own Southern US case. As time went on in these elite families of course, French, English, Scottish and other lines added to the Norman mix in England and elsewhere.

    As for your father, his Ancestry and 23andme results might suggest a fair chunk of Irish/Scottish ancestry (more Ireland & Scotland/British &Irish than a typical English person might be likely to show). What did he show for French and German? If you want a comparison, I score 13.9 percent F&G on 23andme (I'm British; last known continental ancestors are a 17th century Norman and an 18th century Franconian).

    Summing up, even if your father doesn't show substantial French, it doesn't mean that a large number of his ancestors weren't from pre-1066 Normandy.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,100 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    As we're often pointing out on this forum, it's very difficult to accurately distinguish between NW European populations in DNA tests. You're right that aristocratic English families typically had Norman descent (the surviving Anglo-Saxon upper class was dispossessed after 1066), and if you follow the trees you'll see the same names popping up on lines throughout the country over many centuries. I once posted about some of these Norman families who appear in my own tree here. If I recall correctly there were some replies that might speak to your own Southern US case. As time went on in these elite families of course, French, English, Scottish and other lines added to the Norman mix in England and elsewhere.

    As for your father, his Ancestry and 23andme results might suggest a fair chunk of Irish/Scottish ancestry (more Ireland & Scotland/British &Irish than a typical English person might be likely to show). What did he show for French and German? If you want a comparison, I score 13.9 percent F&G on 23andme (I'm British; last known continental ancestors are a 17th century Norman and an 18th century Franconian).

    Summing up, even if your father doesn't show substantial French, it doesn't mean that a large number of his ancestors weren't from pre-1066 Normandy.
    He got 15.1% French & German.

    If you don't mind me asking, why does he show a large amount of British & Irish ancestry (he's closest to Southeast English according to GEDMatch)?

  6. #4
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    Weren't a lot of the Norman aristocrats Scandinavian in origin?

    A lot of his lineage has both English, Old Norse, Gaelic, Welsh, and Norman last names. Some of his ancestors I can't trace back to before 1500 or figure their occupations. For example, one of my ancestors, named John Browne, was born in a small village, Ingatestone, Essex and he came to Virginia and became a fur trader and fought in Bacon's Rebellion. I can't find his father's occupation though so I can't figure out if they were aristocrats or now.

    Also, what do you think I could best describe him ethnically and genetically? (Such as English or Norman and Celtic or Germanic)?

  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    Weren't a lot of the Norman aristocrats Scandinavian in origin?

    A lot of his lineage has both English, Old Norse, Gaelic, Welsh, and Norman last names. Some of his ancestors I can't trace back to before 1500 or figure their occupations. For example, one of my ancestors, named John Browne, was born in a small village, Ingatestone, Essex and he came to Virginia and became a fur trader and fought in Bacon's Rebellion. I can't find his father's occupation though so I can't figure out if they were aristocrats or now.

    Also, what do you think I could best describe him ethnically and genetically? (Such as English or Norman and Celtic or Germanic)?
    Based on everything you've just told us, the DNA isn't going to let you arrive at an accurate breakdown. Unfortunately you've already put it yourself as well as can be said: "He mostly descends from English, Welsh, Irish, and Scottish colonizers of Virginia and North Carolina."
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,100 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  9. #6
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    why does K13 give those secondary population sources if he is all NW European? of all the other groups available to pick from why such Mediterranean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    why does K13 give those secondary population sources if he is all NW European? of all the other groups available to pick from why such Mediterranean?
    I don't know, but it's like my dad's, though his West Asian and East Med are slightly higher, even though his known background is virtually all NW Euro. I'm starting to think it's not that unusual, but I'm not sure what causes it.

    I wonder what Thomas Spence's G25 results would look like, to compare.

     
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 52.28
    2 Baltic 19.51
    3 West_Med 12.19
    4 East_Med 7.21
    5 West_Asian 6.21
    6 Northeast_African 1.33
    7 Oceanian 0.45
    8 Amerindian 0.32
    9 South_Asian 0.26
    10 Red_Sea 0.23

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Southeast_English 4.89
    2 Southwest_English 5.52
    3 West_Scottish 6.15
    4 Orcadian 6.41
    5 Irish 6.6
    6 North_Dutch 7.45
    7 Danish 7.67
    8 South_Dutch 8.07
    9 West_German 8.86
    10 North_German 8.98
    11 Norwegian 9.78
    12 French 11.57
    13 Swedish 12.32
    14 Austrian 16.27
    15 East_German 17.38
    16 Spanish_Cataluna 17.87
    17 North_Swedish 18.2
    18 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 18.98
    19 Portuguese 19.69
    20 Spanish_Galicia 19.88

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 90.6% West_Scottish + 9.4% Italian_Jewish @ 3.94
    2 91.3% West_Scottish + 8.7% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4
    3 90.6% West_Scottish + 9.4% Sephardic_Jewish @ 4.02
    4 91.4% West_Scottish + 8.6% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.03
    5 92.7% West_Scottish + 7.3% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.07
    6 91.2% West_Scottish + 8.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.2
    7 93.2% West_Scottish + 6.8% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.25
    8 89% West_Scottish + 11% West_Sicilian @ 4.27
    9 92.9% West_Scottish + 7.1% Palestinian @ 4.28
    10 93.1% West_Scottish + 6.9% Samaritan @ 4.29
    11 88.7% West_Scottish + 11.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 4.29
    12 90.3% West_Scottish + 9.7% South_Italian @ 4.3
    13 87.1% West_Scottish + 12.9% Tuscan @ 4.31
    14 92.5% West_Scottish + 7.5% Cyprian @ 4.33
    15 93% West_Scottish + 7% Jordanian @ 4.37
    16 90.5% West_Scottish + 9.5% Ashkenazi @ 4.37
    17 92.7% West_Scottish + 7.3% Lebanese_Muslim @ 4.38
    18 94.7% Southwest_English + 5.3% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.42
    19 93.2% West_Scottish + 6.8% Egyptian @ 4.45
    20 94.1% West_Scottish + 5.9% Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.47

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    I don't know, but it's like my dad's, though his West Asian and East Med are slightly higher, even though his known background is virtually all NW Euro. I'm starting to think it's not that unusual, but I'm not sure what causes it.

    I wonder what Thomas Spence's G25 results would look like, to compare.

     
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 52.28
    2 Baltic 19.51
    3 West_Med 12.19
    4 East_Med 7.21
    5 West_Asian 6.21
    6 Northeast_African 1.33
    7 Oceanian 0.45
    8 Amerindian 0.32
    9 South_Asian 0.26
    10 Red_Sea 0.23

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Southeast_English 4.89
    2 Southwest_English 5.52
    3 West_Scottish 6.15
    4 Orcadian 6.41
    5 Irish 6.6
    6 North_Dutch 7.45
    7 Danish 7.67
    8 South_Dutch 8.07
    9 West_German 8.86
    10 North_German 8.98
    11 Norwegian 9.78
    12 French 11.57
    13 Swedish 12.32
    14 Austrian 16.27
    15 East_German 17.38
    16 Spanish_Cataluna 17.87
    17 North_Swedish 18.2
    18 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 18.98
    19 Portuguese 19.69
    20 Spanish_Galicia 19.88

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 90.6% West_Scottish + 9.4% Italian_Jewish @ 3.94
    2 91.3% West_Scottish + 8.7% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4
    3 90.6% West_Scottish + 9.4% Sephardic_Jewish @ 4.02
    4 91.4% West_Scottish + 8.6% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.03
    5 92.7% West_Scottish + 7.3% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.07
    6 91.2% West_Scottish + 8.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.2
    7 93.2% West_Scottish + 6.8% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.25
    8 89% West_Scottish + 11% West_Sicilian @ 4.27
    9 92.9% West_Scottish + 7.1% Palestinian @ 4.28
    10 93.1% West_Scottish + 6.9% Samaritan @ 4.29
    11 88.7% West_Scottish + 11.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 4.29
    12 90.3% West_Scottish + 9.7% South_Italian @ 4.3
    13 87.1% West_Scottish + 12.9% Tuscan @ 4.31
    14 92.5% West_Scottish + 7.5% Cyprian @ 4.33
    15 93% West_Scottish + 7% Jordanian @ 4.37
    16 90.5% West_Scottish + 9.5% Ashkenazi @ 4.37
    17 92.7% West_Scottish + 7.3% Lebanese_Muslim @ 4.38
    18 94.7% Southwest_English + 5.3% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.42
    19 93.2% West_Scottish + 6.8% Egyptian @ 4.45
    20 94.1% West_Scottish + 5.9% Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.47
    a non paternal event a few generations back?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    a non paternal event a few generations back?
    I suppose it's possible, but I think it's something farther back. All of his relatively close DNA matches are of NW Euro origin, He doesn't seem to have any significant DNA matches that would point to a common non-NW Euro ancestor within the past two centuries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    I suppose it's possible, but I think it's something farther back. All of his relatively close DNA matches are of NW Euro origin, He doesn't seem to have any significant DNA matches that would point to a common non-NW Euro ancestor within the past two centuries.
    so with a rather mixed group of NW European heritage, what would give him higher than normal east med and west Asian? he said something about French, and southern French have some genetic similarity to north Italians and north Spaniards.

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