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Thread: what is my actual haplogroup, please?

  1. #1
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    what is my actual haplogroup, please?

    I got I1a1b1 then it has I-M253 (ADNtro) and I-P109 (23/me). Which one is it, which one or part do I follow when I want to read on my paternal haplogroup?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    I got I1a1b1 then it has I-M253 (ADNtro) and I-P109 (23/me). Which one is it, which one or part do I follow when I want to read on my paternal haplogroup?

    I would think the designation from 23&me is the one you should go with. It’s the furthest one downstream and they’re fairly reliable. I haven’t paid much attention to this because it doesn’t apply to me but if you want, you can try double checking it with YSEQ’s new cladefinder tool:

    https://cladefinder.yseq.net/
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    I would think the designation from 23&me is the one you should go with. It’s the furthest one downstream and they’re fairly reliable. I haven’t paid much attention to this because it doesn’t apply to me but if you want, you can try double checking it with YSEQ’s new cladefinder tool:

    https://cladefinder.yseq.net/
    Thanks for the reply but I don't even know what they're asking for.

    Are you saying that I1a1b1-I-M253 are not the same haplogroup as I-P109? I don't understand the subclades and all that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    I would think the designation from 23&me is the one you should go with. It’s the furthest one downstream and they’re fairly reliable. I haven’t paid much attention to this because it doesn’t apply to me but if you want, you can try double checking it with YSEQ’s new cladefinder tool:

    https://cladefinder.yseq.net/
    Ok I've done some googling but I really not sure what I'm reading. they are all the same haplogroup but I-P109 is just an earlier more ancient strain? is that right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    Ok I've done some googling but I really not sure what I'm reading. they are all the same haplogroup but I-P109 is just an earlier more ancient strain? is that right?
    Basically. Go here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-P109/

    You will see I-P109 at the top, saying it formed 3300 years ago. All the I-XxXxX subclades below it fall under it, and formed more recent. Its almost certain your terminal subclade isnt I-P109, but rather one of these, or something that hasnt been discovered yet depending on how many of you there are that share it.

    At the top of the page you will see some other clades (A0-TA1A1bBTCTCFFGHIJKHIJKIJKIJII1I-DF29I-Y2592I-Z2336I-Z2337I-S6346I-L22I-Y3549I-S25633). These are your haplogroup going backwards, so for example I-p109 formed 3300 years ago, if you click on I1, it says it was formed 4400 years go, or roughly thereabouts.

    Certain subclades tend to belong to certain ethnic groups. You might see one sublclade with a bunch of Irish members, or Swedish. Other times its a mishmash of people from all over the place. Its been pretty well established I-P109 is Scandinavian in origin, or thereabouts, but thats not to say you wont fins some random Spaniards under it.

    Try the link JMcB provided. all you need to do is upload your raw 23 and me file under (2) File Upload section
    Last edited by digital_noise; 12-06-2020 at 07:43 AM.
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8

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    I'd agree with JMcB and go with the 23andme designation. They have the P109 SNP included on both their most recent V4 and V5 chips as well as upstream SNPs L22 and CTS6364/Z2336.

    I'm not familiar with ADNtro, but the I1a1b1 designation is the old nomenclature of haplogroup subclades - most people don't use it anymore and instead use the major haplogroup (say I, J, R, etc.) followed by the most downstream SNP (eg. P109) so I-P109. If I see a designation such as I1a1b1, I have to go and look it up, while I know what I-P109, I-Z140, etc. refer to. One other reason for not using this nomenclature is that it means different things on different versions of the ISOGG tree - for example, I1a1b1 refers to I-P109 on the 2016 version of the ISOGG tree but I-L22 on the 2019-2020 version of the ISOGG tree. So you have to know which reference tree ADNtro is using. To be honest, the potential for confusion is high and I would avoid it all together.

    Most of the top level haplogroups (I1, J2, R1b, etc.) are thousands of years old and represent a group of men sharing a line of paternal ancestors represented in DNA by the same series of mutations on their Y chromosome which they all inherited. Some men can be grouped closer together with a more recent line of common ancestors and these are subclades so you can divide haplogroup I1 into I1a, I1b, I1c and so on. Then you can subdivide each of these groups further, based on a more recent common ancestor so I1a can get divided into I1a1, I1a2, I1a3, etc. As you can imagine, this can lead to a long alphabet soup such as I1a1b1a1e2b1a, so a few years ago the naming convention changed to the shorthand format I talked about in the previous paragraph. Along with this the major haplogroup names changed as well, so I1 became I-M253, I2 became I-M438, etc. If we use three of us as an example (and refer to the YFull tree that digital_noise posted a link to) yourself, JMcB and myself are all I1 or I-M253 (these are different names for the same thing) and we all share a common ancestor at that branch. As you refine further eventually we all branch off from each other as our Y-DNA ancestor went down a different evolutionary path. JMcB's and my ancestors are on the I-Z58 branch, while yours are on the I-Y2592 branch (look at the breadcrumbs at the top of the YFull tree) and the most recent common ancestor for the three of us is the I-DF29 branch. Since JMcB and myself are more closely related we share common ancestors on further downstream on the I-Z58, I-Z59, I-CTS8647, I-Z60, I-Z140, and I-Z141 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z141/before we diverge and JMcB's Y-DNA ancestors are on the I-CTS6739 branch and mine are on the I-Z2535 branch. So myself and JMcB share a common ancestor with each other aboute 4100 years ago and the two if us with you about 4500 years ago.

    So the phylogenetic trees at YFull, FTDNA, ISOGG are ways to put the SNP mutations into a genealogical order. I guess an analogy would be that myself and my third cousin share a great-great-grandfather as an ancestor while my first cousin and I share my grandfather as an ancestor but my third cousin doesn't. Or if you consider that California and Florida are both parts of the United States of America but Florida isn't part of California. It might be easier to visualize if you select the "chart" view of the YFull tree or look at these phylogenetic trees at Eupedia https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...I1_Y-DNA.shtml although bear in mind that the Eupedia trees were last updated in 2017 and are a bit out of date now. Alternatively you can take a look at this Coggle diagram which was made by one of the I-P109 admins https://coggle.it/diagram/Wzv296_5PV2rX1XO/t/i-p109

    For reading up on I-P109, they have a Facebook group here https://www.facebook.com/groups/153232508763 which used to be pretty active although one of the main admins has left Facebook and it's not as active since. Or if you go to the I-P109 project page at FTDNA here https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/y-dna-i-p109/about it has contact details for the project admins who are generally pretty helpful and should be able to point you in the right direction for places to read up on I-P109.

    I maintain a map of ancient DNA samples that are I1 - the link is in my signature below. This includes several I-P109 examples - SZ45 from Lombard period cemetery at Szólád (6th century A.D.) in modern day Hungary, SVK-A1 from ancient Iceland, R1286 from the Basilica of San Lorenzo in Rome are all examples of I-P109, as well as several VK samples from the recent population genetics of the viking world paper. You'll see some different subclade names after these samples - for example SZ45 is I-FGC21810 which represents a further refinement of I-P109 down branches I-FGC16695, I-Y14999 and I-FGC21819.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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    P109 is a more specific name for a specific part of M253
    Most of my family is from Tennessee, though a few of my ancestors are from adjacent areas of North Carolina and Georgia. My paternal line is positive for Z30682, underneath J-Z7671 and Y11200.

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    *** ok, so I got this:

    Most specific position on the YFull YTree is I-P109 Link to I-P109 on YFull View heatmap on Y Heatmap View theoretical migration on PhyloGeographer

    I-P109 P109+
    ┣━I-FGC16695 +2 FGC16695(?)
    ┣━I-S10891 +3 S10891($)
    ┣━I-Y3664 +3 PF1334/M10423($) Y3664/FGC23778(?)
    ┗━I-Y5621 +2 Y5617/FGC16717(?) Y5621/FGC16686($)

    Available Panels
    I1-L22 Panel Predicted I-P109 is downstream of the panel root. This panel may be applicable if it tests subclades below I-P109. Please verify and check with YSEQ customer support.


    Next best prediction (scored 98 compared to 99) I-L22


    *** I then clicked on the last one 'I-Y5621' and got this:

    I-Y5621Y5621/FGC16686 * Y5617/FGC16717formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybpinfo
    I-Y5621*
    I-Y6374Y25789 * Y146279 * Y26707+5 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 1800 ybpinfo
    I-Y6374*
    id:YF07196
    id:VK70DNK [DK-85]agenew
    I-Y28231Y29089 * Y28231 * Y29087+2 SNPsformed 1800 ybp, TMRCA 1300 ybpinfo
    id:YF07752SWE
    id:YF04678SWE [SE-M]
    I-S23679FGC16681 * Y14330/FGC16715 * S23679+1 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybpinfo
    id:VK281DNK [DK-85]ageinew
    I-S23679*
    I-FGC33239FGC33241 * BY158336 * FGC33239formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 1650 ybpinfo
    id:YF14402POL [PL-WN]
    id:YF03174GBR
    I-L1438L1438/S19489 * Y5614/FGC16702 * Y5616/FGC16706+13 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 1650 ybpinfo
    I-L1438*
    id:YF01618FRA [FR-14]
    I-Y15572FGC22153 * Y15572 * FGC22155+8 SNPsformed 1650 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
    id:YF03531GBR [GB-ESS]
    id:YF01921

    *** then I went back and clicked on the I-L22 and got:

    Most specific position on the YFull YTree is I-L22 Link to I-L22 on YFull View heatmap on Y Heatmap View theoretical migration on PhyloGeographer

    I-L22 L22/S142+
    ┣━I-FGC28767 +1 FGC28767($) FGC28769($) FGC28776(?) FGC28779(?) FGC28780(?) FGC28782(?) FGC28788(?) FGC28789(?) FGC28792(?)
    ┣━I-FGC41265 +3 FGC41265($)
    ┣━I-PH497 BY78813(?) BY86997(?) FGC57361(?) FT10074(?) PH1319($) PH497($) PH977($) S10773(?) Y64934(?) Y71212(?) Y71816($) Y72678(?) Y73174(?) Y73753(?) Y75913(?) Y78537(?) Y78897(?)
    ┣━I-Y24054 +1 Y24054/FGC54049(?)
    ┗━I-Y3549 +4 Y3549/FGC8754(?) Z2338/CTS11651($)

    *** then I went and clicked on the 1I-L22 panel and got this:

    I1-L22 (including P109) Panel
    [I1-L22Panel]
    I1-L22 (including P109) PanelThis panel is recommended to persons who have tested L22+ before or who have a clear prediction for this haplogroup.

    With this DNA test we start with 3 key SNPs:


    P109
    CTS6868
    CTS2208

    Then we work down the branches iteratively until we have found your position on the given tree.


    The test is completed when the unique phylogenetic position on the tree has been determined.


    See this tree diagram to understand the groupings in this panel:


    L22 / S142
    PH497 new
    Y23688
    Y23699 new
    Y23693 new
    Y24056
    FGC28767 new
    Y139735 new
    FGC41265 new
    Y21091
    Y24791
    PH5383
    Y20843
    Y30053
    S19986
    Y10646
    Y19413
    S9318
    Y100876 new
    Y17218
    Y16808
    Y31084
    Y37113
    Y3605
    Y3601
    Y11647
    Y15298
    Y15031
    Y21524
    Y23708
    CTS11603 / S4744
    FGC14412
    Y24631
    S6437
    Y22028
    Y23319
    Y19934
    Y19933
    Y22016
    Y22396
    L300 / S241
    Y32102
    CTS108
    Y22918
    Y22914
    FGC52008 / Y24013
    Y31106
    FGC52009
    FGC52012
    FGC52006
    Z2338 / CTS11651
    CTS5350
    Y21962
    L205 / S239
    A10198
    Y11821
    A5573
    P109
    FGC21824
    M10423
    FGC31049
    Y5621
    Y26707
    Y29086
    BY73576 new
    S23679
    L1438
    Y15860
    S10891
    FGC21728
    Y24453
    FGC21732
    CTS8407
    Y14222
    Y5840
    Y22993
    Y5839
    FGC21695
    FGC21685
    Y20205
    FGC21683
    Y18385
    Y19790
    Y19793
    S7660
    FGC14188 / Y4048
    Y4047
    Y5488
    FGC21838
    S14887
    Y30033
    Y20844
    Y11203
    Y29628
    Y29631
    FGC22045
    FGC33034
    FGC22054
    FGC13270 / Y4115
    FGC13273 / Y4114
    FGC13277 / Y7530
    Y4734
    Y4741
    FGC21970
    Y4739
    Y13944
    Y4740
    FGC14508 / Y3663
    FGC22131 / Y7656
    FGC23758
    FGC14514 / Y6205
    FGC14515 / Y7545
    FGC14507
    FGC22110
    FGC17110 / Y6213
    FGC23560 / Y6220
    FGC22112 / YP1012
    FGC22113
    FGC43220 / Y19678
    FGC22115
    CTS6868
    BY3461 / Y18232
    Y17922
    Z74
    M6003
    L813
    Y30026
    Y30373
    Y30022
    Y5153
    FGC15303
    Y18927
    Y21736
    Y21737
    Y23712
    Y15505
    Y14994
    Y19917
    Y24951
    Y5476
    BY47860
    Y5477
    Y5474
    Y5483
    PH159
    Y19670
    Y20037
    Y23527
    Y15154
    Y17669
    Y13038
    Y13505
    BY3429
    Y8943
    Y80329
    FGC17581 / Y9434
    FGC17586
    FGC51755
    FGC52743
    Y13039
    A18256
    Y30042
    Y24482
    Y16704
    Y16448
    Y17675
    Y24812
    CTS2208
    Y24703
    Y30054
    Y20288
    Y30547
    Y23646
    Y36116
    Y23647
    Y31092
    Y23967
    L287 / S240
    BY594
    L258 / S335
    Y23449
    Y8598
    Y16256
    Y16174
    Y17641
    Y15027
    Y15859
    Y16347
    Y17381
    Y17380
    Z2045
    Y17401
    Y21563
    Y21558
    Y17220
    BY2572 / Y13391
    Y13389
    Y13390
    Y17215
    Y19842
    L296
    Z721 / CTS2242 / S437
    Z133
    Y15897
    BY511 / Y10973
    CTS3496
    Y16812
    Y22004
    Y22888
    Y24060
    Y10990
    Y19077
    CTS1321
    Y20304
    Y19820
    Last edited by JerryS.; 12-06-2020 at 03:53 PM.

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  17. #9
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    Thanks to all of you guys. I'm far from having a good handle on this but I'm starting to see things better now.

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