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Thread: What haplogroup and language did Brygian invasion Balkans bring?

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    What haplogroup and language did Brygian invasion Balkans bring?

    According to N.G.L Hammond, in the Late Bronze Age, there appears a specific culture that seems to have invaded North Epirus, Pelagonia, Western Macedonia, and the Durrės, Ohrid, Shkodra regions of Albania.

    Many of these sites are near where "Brygians" are later mentioned by different authors.



    Vanja Stanisic, a linguist, proposes a "Dardano-Brygian" branch.

    Some people argue for a "Greco-Phrygian" branch based on similarities, but this is contested and just one hypothesis. The earliest Phrygian inscriptions are at least 500 years after it had moved away from Europe into Anatolia, and waas eventally assimilated entirely or Hellenized, speaking to intense Greek influence.

    Mysians and Phrygians seem to have moved together into Anatolia, and Phrygians were called Muski (-ki suffix of anatolian languages), suggesting that their language and Mysian was possibly considered one group.

    Since N.G.L Hammond propsed an origin via Kacanik (Modern Kosovo, Dardania in antiquity) i dont see it as probable they were speaking some sort of para greek.

    He compares their culture to Lusatian without being quite Lusation, so maybe a culture a bit more south than Lusatian culture, somewehere around Hungary?
    Last edited by Johane Derite; 06-23-2020 at 11:58 AM.

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    This is Stanisic's proposal for a Dardano-Brygian branch:

    http://www.balcanica.rs/balcanica/up...20STANISIC.pdf

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    This North-West zone of Albania with Brygian settlement is particularly important as it is where the least Roman penetration in placenames is in all of Albania.

    (See: http://www.albanianhistory.net/1936_Stadtmueller/ )


    It also roughly the region where "Albanopolis" is mentioned, where Albanians got their ethnonym from sometime in the middle ages.


    Brygians are mentioned alive & kicking around Durrės - Ohrid region in 24 AD, where Albani will be mentioned ~100 years later by Ptolemy.


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    Personally I believe that the Phrygians of Anatolia and the Bryges of the southern Balkans spoke a language that was closest to Greek and its dialects. The inscriptions of Phrygian show that the language shared a number of isoglosses and features with Greek, for example Phrygian shows the same reflexes as the PIE laryngeals found in Greek and the use of the *-eu̯-/*-ēu̯ suffix. Though it should be noted that both languages also share many features with Armenian, and even some with Albanian. https://www.academia.edu/42660767/On...pean_languages.

    The oldest artifacts that can confidently be called Phrygian are dated back to the mid 8th century BCE and are found in central Anatolia, so we currently have no major linguistic evidence of the language spoken by the Phrygians in the Balkans. This complicates things, especially in regards to the Bryges who remained in the peninsula.

    As for the Mushki (Muški in Assyrian records), some have suggested that they were a tribal confederation of groups from Anatolia. With Phrygian-speakers also being a part of this confederation.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 06-23-2020 at 02:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Personally I believe that the Phrygians of Anatolia and the Bryges of the southern Balkans spoke a language that was closest to Greek and its dialects. The inscriptions of Phrygian show that the language shared a number of isoglosses and features with Greek, for example Phrygian shows the same reflexes as the PIE laryngeals found in Greek and the use of the *-eu̯-/*-ēu̯ suffix. Though it should be noted that both languages also share many features with Armenian, and even some with Albanian. https://www.academia.edu/42660767/On...pean_languages.

    The oldest artifacts that can confidently be called Phrygian are dated back to the mid 8th century BCE and are found in central Anatolia, so we currently have no major linguistic evidence of the language spoken by the Phrygians in the Balkans. This complicates things, especially in regards to the Bryges who remained in the peninsula.

    As for the Mushki (Muški in Assyrian records), some have suggested that they were a tribal confederation of groups from Anatolia. With Phrygian-speakers also being a part of this confederation.
    I think that can be an artefact of assymetrical ancient comparative material. We don't have any of the other balkanic languages well attested except names, so it can distort what it appears close to in favour of the language with the greatest corpus, in this case, ancient greek dialects.

    I would also be weary of assuming that Balkan Brygian and Anatolian Phrygian are exactly the same dialects. They had a common ancestor most likely, but could have been dialectally diverged long before the Trojan war. We should be a bit cautious in extrapolating Brygian status solely from Phrygian.

    For Brygian, the primary material should be linguistic material from places they are attested. Unfortunately, i'm not aware of any such works specifically dealing with their regions in a linguistic investigation.

    Placenames that Hammond says belonged to them and where their culture shows up are:

    Σκύδρα (Skudra) in Macedonia
    Κύδραι (Kudrai) in North Pelagonia
    Σκόδρα (Skodra) in Albania
    Brygias / Bryks in North Pelagonia


    Interestingly, Smerdelaos believes the Albanian "Skodra" was actually pronounced Skudra, and only written that way because of Greek accent:



    Indo European *-sk- cluster became -hk- sometime in proto-Albanian and then -h- eventually. If Σκύδρα -> Κύδραι is possibly a reflection of this evolution then it connects Brygian to an Albanoid spectrum.


    They are listed as still being alive and present in Albania in 24 AD.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I think that can be an artefact of assymetrical ancient comparative material. We don't have any of the other balkanic languages well attested except names, so it can distort what it appears close to in favour of the language with the greatest corpus, in this case, ancient greek dialects.

    I would also be weary of assuming that Balkan Brygian and Anatolian Phrygian are exactly the same dialects. They had a common ancestor most likely, but could have been dialectally diverged long before the Trojan war. We should be a bit cautious in extrapolating Brygian status solely from Phrygian.

    For Brygian, the primary material should be linguistic material from places they are attested. Unfortunately, i'm not aware of any such works specifically dealing with their regions in a linguistic investigation.

    Placenames that Hammond says belonged to them and where their culture shows up are:

    Σκύδρα (Skudra) in Macedonia
    Κύδραι (Kudrai) in North Pelagonia
    Σκόδρα (Skodra) in Albania
    Brygias / Bryks in North Pelagonia


    Interestingly, Smerdelaos believes the Albanian "Skodra" was actually pronounced Skudra, and only written that way because of Greek accent:



    Indo European *-sk- cluster became -hk- sometime in proto-Albanian and then -h- eventually. If Σκύδρα -> Κύδραι is possibly a reflection of this evolution then it connects Brygian to an Albanoid spectrum.


    They are listed as still being alive and present in Albania in 24 AD.

    Do we know if Pelagonia is named after the tribe Paeonia ( a tribe north of the Macedonians and always a macedonia ally ) ?

    are they the Bessi Tribe ?...............roman historian Strabo states

    Last edited by vettor; 06-23-2020 at 06:17 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    According to N.G.L Hammond, in the Late Bronze Age, there appears a specific culture that seems to have invaded North Epirus, Pelagonia, Western Macedonia, and the Durrės, Ohrid, Shkodra regions of Albania.

    Many of these sites are near where "Brygians" are later mentioned by different authors.



    Vanja Stanisic, a linguist, proposes a "Dardano-Brygian" branch.

    Some people argue for a "Greco-Phrygian" branch based on similarities, but this is contested and just one hypothesis. The earliest Phrygian inscriptions are at least 500 years after it had moved away from Europe into Anatolia, and waas eventally assimilated entirely or Hellenized, speaking to intense Greek influence.

    Mysians and Phrygians seem to have moved together into Anatolia, and Phrygians were called Muski (-ki suffix of anatolian languages), suggesting that their language and Mysian was possibly considered one group.

    Since N.G.L Hammond propsed an origin via Kacanik (Modern Kosovo, Dardania in antiquity) i dont see it as probable they were speaking some sort of para greek.

    He compares their culture to Lusatian without being quite Lusation, so maybe a culture a bit more south than Lusatian culture, somewehere around Hungary?
    If we go by ancient scholars, then the Brygians a the same people as Phyrgians and they went from paeonia ( modern macedonia , not Greek macedonia ) to Anatolia to settle near lydians and war against them circa 500BC

    If we go by ancient scholars, then the Epirotes are the only Pelagsian people


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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post

    If we go by ancient scholars, then the Epirotes are the only Pelagsian people
    I don't know how that is relevant, and I asked before for this quote but never got it. I am genuinely curious to see someone saying "epirotes are the only pelasgians". You mentioned Appian said it but i wasn't able to find it

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    Phrygians and Mysians are mentioned in the Iliad as already being in Anatolia during the Trojan war by Homer. There is no way that a 500BC origin accounts for them, that is obviously way too late.

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