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Thread: who were Neolithic Iranians?

  1. #31
    While Iranics are being discussed, to what degree do Tajik Sarazm_En, and Geokseur En/N differ from the various Iranian neolithics?
    Last edited by ThaYamamoto; 06-29-2020 at 04:25 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    How do you know that AASI wasn't already in the Indus River Valley when Iran N[-type] ancestry arrived? Isn't that a more likely scenario than a northwest migration of AASI from the Peninsula?

    I assume you're basing this off of Shinde's claims about Iran-type ancestry in IVC actually being what he calls "Indus HG" ancestry and not actually the result of Iran Neolithic people moving in. Which I think is about as likely as COVID disappearing in the fall.
    An indigenous Indus Iran_N, based of the latest conferences and lecture events Shinde and Rai have done over the past year seems to be the narrative they are pushing and has become a sort of the background for 'local' Steppe ancestry. This is in lieu of that upcoming paper which suggests a local origin for R1a , which is utter BS IMO . In qpAdm, IVC ,is perfectly fine with a Sarazm to Hotu like source + AASI. I even used genoplot to construct potential IVC ghosts using Sarazm / Hotu and AASI and you get populations sitting on that cline. Frankly there is nothing magical about the Iran_N component in IVC populations as Shinde and Rai seem to suggest. The Zhob caves have not yielded any Neolithic HGs, rather the earliest neolthic settlements are near the Bolan and Quetta further north and they arrived there from the Helmand Basin. So that makes the possibility of a Mesolithic Iran_N HG in the Indus , nonexistent.

     
    Code:
    ivcghost,0.045649825000000005,-0.01309542500000001,-0.16251424999999997,0.08735825,-0.10380104999999999,0.044843525,0.0017972000000000005,0.0050498750000000005,-0.014244300000000001,-0.01022135,0.00639475,0.010555374999999999,-0.0020057250000000003,-0.0052724999999999985,0.015367675,0.019484150000000002,0.0056086999999999994,-0.01057785,0.0053199250000000005,-0.010390299999999996,0.0021718500000000003,-0.00568345,-0.0016542000000000002,-0.007743049999999998,0.009671025

    .
    Last edited by pegasus; 06-30-2020 at 05:00 AM.

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    An indigenous Indus Iran_N, based of the latest conferences and lecture events Shinde and Rai have done over the past year seems to be the narrative they are pushing and has become a sort of the background for 'local' Steppe ancestry. This is in lieu of that upcoming paper which suggests a local origin for R1a , which is utter BS IMO . In qpAdm, IVC ,is perfectly fine with a Sarazm to Hotu like source + AASI. I even used genoplot to construct potential IVC ghosts using Sarazm / Hotu and AASI and you get populations sitting on that cline. Frankly there is nothing magical about the Iran_N component in IVC populations as Shinde and Rai seem to suggest. The Zhob caves have not yielded any Neolithic HGs, rather the earliest neolthic settlements are near the Bolan and Quetta further north and they arrived there from the Helmand Basin. So that makes the possibility of a Mesolithic Iran_N HG in the Indus , nonexistent.

     
    Code:
    ivcghost,0.045649825000000005,-0.01309542500000001,-0.16251424999999997,0.08735825,-0.10380104999999999,0.044843525,0.0017972000000000005,0.0050498750000000005,-0.014244300000000001,-0.01022135,0.00639475,0.010555374999999999,-0.0020057250000000003,-0.0052724999999999985,0.015367675,0.019484150000000002,0.0056086999999999994,-0.01057785,0.0053199250000000005,-0.010390299999999996,0.0021718500000000003,-0.00568345,-0.0016542000000000002,-0.007743049999999998,0.009671025

    .
    Hotu isn't a neolithic HG and looking at copper age Hisar tepe remains, they seem to have little Hotu ancestry vs Zagros neolithic ancestry. Meanwhile shahr ba2 seems to have more hotu than Zagros neolithic tendency.

    The native r1a is hogwash as is 'local' steppe, but I think there is some merit in the pre neolithic migration. Shahar is still at the periphery of the ivc zone so I suspect that samples from deeper in the zone will prefer Hotu over ganj dareh even more so than shahr ba2 does.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
    Hotu isn't a neolithic HG and looking at copper age Hisar tepe remains, they seem to have little Hotu ancestry vs Zagros neolithic ancestry. Meanwhile shahr ba2 seems to have more hotu than Zagros neolithic tendency.

    The native r1a is hogwash as is 'local' steppe, but I think there is some merit in the pre neolithic migration. Shahar is still at the periphery of the ivc zone so I suspect that samples from deeper in the zone will prefer Hotu over ganj dareh even more so than shahr ba2 does.
    Tepe Hissar has nothing to do with the IVC. A PPN migration into the Indus is impossible given the admixture in the samples is between 5400-3700 BC. Its understood the Iran_N donor to IVC populations is on the Hotu-Sarazm like cline, that was my underlying point and those ghost is based of that.

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  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Tepe Hissar has nothing to do with the IVC. A PPN migration into the Indus is impossible given the admixture in the samples is between 5400-3700 BC. Its understood the Iran_N donor to IVC populations is on the Hotu-Sarazm like cline, that was my underlying point and those ghost is based of that.
    Usually when people talk about a neolithic migration into south Asia, they mean a Zagros population moving into south Asia in the form of a neolithic farming society. The Hotu migration posits a movement of non-farmers and a pre-neolithic society. The mesolithic to copper age transition in the northeastern Iranian region involved a near replacement of the local Hotu population with a new one which was primarily Zagros neolithic derived though it also had Anatolian and CHG tendencies as well, so this post mesolithic wave was not the major donor to IVC.
    tepe hissar vahaduo.png

    What was Sarazm like by the way, I have read that it is Iran-like + WSHG, but what was that Iran-like component more similar to Hotu or Ganj Dareh, or is it it's own thing? Using Ganj Dareh, Hotu and WSHG as inputs, one of the two shows an equal Hotu-GD split while the other shows a much higher GD than Hotu component (I4910 showing only 3.8% Hotu vs 75% Ganj Dareh).
    Using an additional CHG input improves the fit from 6.3 to 5 (still not good) but it also removes Hotu from I4910.

    Target,Distance,GEO_CHG,IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,IRN_HotuI IIb_Meso,RUS_Tyumen_HG
    TJK_Sarazm_En:I4290,0.04972063,26.2,31.4,28.2,14.2
    TJK_Sarazm_En:I4910,0.04960347,19.2,64.4,0.0,16.4
    Average,0.04966205,22.7,47.9,14.1,15.3

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  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
    Usually when people talk about a neolithic migration into south Asia, they mean a Zagros population moving into south Asia in the form of a neolithic farming society. The Hotu migration posits a movement of non-farmers and a pre-neolithic society. The mesolithic to copper age transition in the northeastern Iranian region involved a near replacement of the local Hotu population with a new one which was primarily Zagros neolithic derived though it also had Anatolian and CHG tendencies as well, so this post mesolithic wave was not the major donor to IVC.
    tepe hissar vahaduo.png

    What was Sarazm like by the way, I have read that it is Iran-like + WSHG, but what was that Iran-like component more similar to Hotu or Ganj Dareh, or is it it's own thing? Using Ganj Dareh, Hotu and WSHG as inputs, one of the two shows an equal Hotu-GD split while the other shows a much higher GD than Hotu component (I4910 showing only 3.8% Hotu vs 75% Ganj Dareh).
    Using an additional CHG input improves the fit from 6.3 to 5 (still not good) but it also removes Hotu from I4910.

    Target,Distance,GEO_CHG,IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,IRN_HotuI IIb_Meso,RUS_Tyumen_HG
    TJK_Sarazm_En:I4290,0.04972063,26.2,31.4,28.2,14.2
    TJK_Sarazm_En:I4910,0.04960347,19.2,64.4,0.0,16.4
    Average,0.04966205,22.7,47.9,14.1,15.3
    I have read that the transition from the Mesolithic hunter-gatherer economy to the Neolithic farming economy in Northeast Iran actually took quite a long time. Did Neolithic farmers from the Zagros area arrive in the Hotu area rather late in time then?

  10. #37
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    I am also quite sure that there was some BMAC admix in South Asia already before Indo-Iranians. The latest waves of Neolithic immigrants would already slightly Iran_C shifted.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 06-30-2020 at 05:05 PM.

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  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    I have read that the transition from the Mesolithic hunter-gatherer economy to the Neolithic farming economy in Northeast Iran actually took quite a long time. Did Neolithic farmers from the Zagros area arrive in the Hotu area rather late in time then?
    I don't know about the exact timing.

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