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Thread: who were Neolithic Iranians?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaYamamoto View Post
    I'm sure Wezmeh differs from Ganj Dareh. Wezmeh seems to take precedence in modern Iranians far as I know, opposed to Ganj Dareh and its association with South Asians.
    "four Early Neolithic (EN) genomes from Iran, including a well preserved sample from the central Zagros site of Wezmeh Cave (WC1, 7,455-7,082 cal BCE), the latter to a coverage of 10x. The three other individuals from Tepe Abdul Hosein were less well preserved (genome coverage between 0.6 and 1.2 x) but are around 10,000 years old, and therefore among the earliest Neolithic human remains in the world"

    Modern-day peoples with affinity to WC1.
    "inferred proportion of haplotype sharing with the Iranian Neolithic Wezmeh Cave ... are depicted with an increasingly stronger blue color"
    "Circle sizes illustrate the relative absolute proportion of this difference between WC1 versus Bar8."


    On f3:
    "f3 statistics indicate Iranian Zoroastrians are the most genetically similar to all four Neolithic Iranians, followed by other modern Iranians (Fars), Balochi (SE Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan), Brahui (Pakistan and Afghanistan), Kalash (Pakistan) and Georgians (Figs. S12-15). Interestingly, WC1 most likely had brown eyes, relatively dark skin, and black hair"

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    "four Early Neolithic (EN) genomes from Iran, including a well preserved sample from the central Zagros site of Wezmeh Cave (WC1, 7,455-7,082 cal BCE), the latter to a coverage of 10x. The three other individuals from Tepe Abdul Hosein were less well preserved (genome coverage between 0.6 and 1.2 x) but are around 10,000 years old, and therefore among the earliest Neolithic human remains in the world"

    Modern-day peoples with affinity to WC1.
    "inferred proportion of haplotype sharing with the Iranian Neolithic Wezmeh Cave ... are depicted with an increasingly stronger blue color"
    "Circle sizes illustrate the relative absolute proportion of this difference between WC1 versus Bar8."


    On f3:
    "f3 statistics indicate Iranian Zoroastrians are the most genetically similar to all four Neolithic Iranians, followed by other modern Iranians (Fars), Balochi (SE Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan), Brahui (Pakistan and Afghanistan), Kalash (Pakistan) and Georgians (Figs. S12-15). Interestingly, WC1 most likely had brown eyes, relatively dark skin, and black hair"
    How much Iranian is found in today's Punjabi and Other North Indian groups?
    Last edited by akash; 06-28-2020 at 10:37 PM.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by akash View Post
    How much Iranian is found in today's Punjabi and Other North Indian groups?
    There is no Iranian_N in today's Punjabi and N. Indian groups except if there are some groups still left without steppe (i.e. still InPe like). Some got modern Iranian in the post-medieval period.

    At one time IMO "Iranian" was perhaps at 100% or was not separable from others. Then as AASI related started expanding onto the northwest, that Iranian steadily reduced. This is what we see in InPe samples until circa ~1000BC. Then steppe groups started moving in as well as AASI rich groups from SE Asia. Even though the steppe groups also had Iran_N related, it was in admixed form. So my estimate would be that actual Iran N is perhaps steady or down a bit since the early admixture event in South Asia. It has diminished due to steppe in some populations and that extra SE Asian in others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    There is no Iranian_N in today's Punjabi and N. Indian groups except if there are some groups still left without steppe (i.e. still InPe like). Some got modern Iranian in the post-medieval period.

    At one time IMO "Iranian" was perhaps at 100% or was not separable from others. Then as AASI related started expanding onto the northwest, that Iranian steadily reduced. This is what we see in InPe samples until circa ~1000BC. Then steppe groups started moving in as well as AASI rich groups from SE Asia. Even though the steppe groups also had Iran_N related, it was in admixed form. So my estimate would be that actual Iran N is perhaps steady or down a bit since the early admixture event in South Asia. It has diminished due to steppe in some populations and that extra SE Asian in others.
    Not sure how is that possible though? didn't Indus valley folks have huge amounts of Iranian N? How can their dna disappear if majority of South Asians today are still related to Indus Valley folks

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Shouldn't Iran_N be represented by Y-Hg J instead of the parent clade IJ?
    The point was to say that the ancestry that differentiates Kostenki/Sunghir/Vestonice from Ust-Ishim is the same ancestry that makes up the bulk of Iran_N. This macro-branch is associated with y-hg IJ. In Europe it's I, in Near East it's J.
    Quote Originally Posted by Max_H View Post
    That is I recall from the AASI thread, just not sure about the Taforalt because Iran_N samples did not really have any haplogroups that one would associate with Taforalt. But more Basal or/and ANA than CHG.
    The amount of Taforalt-like ancestry I'd estimate to be in Iran_N is only like 4%. Maybe it is expressed in the y-hg E found in Swat and Gonur_BA.
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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by akash View Post
    Not sure how is that possible though? didn't Indus valley folks have huge amounts of Iranian N? How can their dna disappear if majority of South Asians today are still related to Indus Valley folks
    To be clear Iran_N didn't disappear. It mixed with AASI to form InPe. InPe then mixed with Steppe to form the modern cline. Which means that phylogenically modern South Asians have Iran_N via InPe and a small portion via Steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    At one time IMO "Iranian" was perhaps at 100% or was not separable from others. Then as AASI related started expanding onto the northwest, that Iranian steadily reduced.
    How do you know that AASI wasn't already in the Indus River Valley when Iran N[-type] ancestry arrived? Isn't that a more likely scenario than a northwest migration of AASI from the Peninsula?

    I assume you're basing this off of Shinde's claims about Iran-type ancestry in IVC actually being what he calls "Indus HG" ancestry and not actually the result of Iran Neolithic people moving in. Which I think is about as likely as COVID disappearing in the fall.
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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    How do you know that AASI wasn't already in the Indus River Valley when Iran N[-type] ancestry arrived? Isn't that a more likely scenario than a northwest migration of AASI from the Peninsula?

    I assume you're basing this off of Shinde's claims about Iran-type ancestry in IVC actually being what he calls "Indus HG" ancestry and not actually the result of Iran Neolithic people moving in. Which I think is about as likely as COVID disappearing in the fall.
    No I had predicted this well before the Shinde/Reich paper. My thinking for some time has been that the oldest population in north/northwest South Asia was Iran Hotu like and that AASI was a later admixture.
    It is pretty much in line with what Chad's analysis also shows - but my thinking was based more on Metspalu.
    Last edited by parasar; 06-29-2020 at 02:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    No I had predicted this well before the Shinde/Reich paper. My thinking for some time has been that the oldest population in north/northwest South Asia was Iran Hotu like and that AASI was a later admixture.
    It is pretty much in line with what Chad's analysis also shows - but my thinking was based more on Metspalu.
    Biogeographically speaking that would also make sense; the Thar Desert is the real biogeographical separation between the Indo-Malayan realm and the Afro-Arabian realm so Iranian Hotu in what is now northwestern India/Pakistan would still be part of the Afro-Arabian realm.
    Last edited by traject; 06-29-2020 at 03:03 AM.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by traject View Post
    Biogeographically speaking that would also make sense; the Thar Desert is the real biogeographical separation between the Indo-Malayan realm and the Afro-Arabian realm so Iranian Hotu in what is now northwestern India/Pakistan would still be part of the Afro-Arabian realm.
    Thar desert doesnt really seperate the northern plain of south asia running from Punjab to UP

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