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Thread: Researching Possible Jewish Ancestry-GED painting- NEED HELP PLEASE! :)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Wouldn't trust that. Both gives false positives and false negatives. Saw some comparisons and while 23andme nailed it to +/- 1-2 %, anything working with East Mediterranean/Red Sea or the EUTest was quite often off by a lot. Recognised AJ were there's none and vice versa.
    By this reason, we should use also K13, not only EUTest; is interesting compare these calculators.
    Last edited by rober_tce; 06-28-2020 at 07:58 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rober_tce View Post
    By this reason, we should use also K13, not only EUTest.
    Doesn't work. I think that's because AJ is so specific with IBD sharing, but unspecific by general ancestral components, that's why the algorithm should consider this. There are Europeans without any AJ having significantly more Near Eastern ancestry than people with actual AJ ancestors and its even practically the same kind of NE ancestry. That's even more true if the AJ admixture is very low. 23andme has the highest rates for precision/recall for AJ in the European/West Eurasian context: 99:97
    https://www.23andme.com/en-int/ances...osition-guide/
    You don't get much closer with any other tool, most certainly not with the usual gedmatch tools.

    The same isn't necessarily true for other Jewish ancestries, which are different and were not targeted by 23andme at all. So its definitely the best for suspected AJ ancestry, but not so much for other Jewish.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-28-2020 at 08:03 PM.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    I'm no expert in this. Maybe others will chime in. The top K13 categories for Ashkenazim are East Med, West Med, North Atlantic and West Asian (usually, but not necessarily in that order), plus Red Sea and Baltic. Results are roughly similar for Eastern Sephardim. These are not evenly distributed in chromosome painting for Ashkenazim or Sephardim - there are segments that are entirely East Med, North Atlantic, etc. - so I'm not sure if there is a typical pattern for segments shared between an individual from these groups and a predominantly non-Jewish individual. A segment combining ribbons of East Med, West Med, West Asian and Red Sea and/or North Atlantic seems like a more tell-tale sign of a Jewish origin than any one of those in isolation, but I'm not sure.
    Pretty interesting this tool, had never used it before. So you're saying that the segment should represent a sample of all their top components, while randwulf suggests to look for shared non-Euro admixture. The latter seems more intuitive to me if we're looking for a Jewish segment, or have I misunderstood something?

    I used the tool to paint the difference on a triangulated segment between me and two North African Jewish kits. For both kits (first two in the pic), the most represented region is West Asia followed by East Med, Red Sea and then tiny amounts of North Atlantic (red in the top left), West Med and Sub-saharan. Interesting to note that my North Atlantic is only around 2%. Third pic is the difference between the two Jewish kits.

    segment.png

    So depending on how one interprets it, the tiny stripes of Euro regions could speak either for or against a Jewish origin of the segment
    Last edited by andyouare; 06-30-2020 at 01:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyouare View Post
    Pretty interesting this tool, had never used it before. So you're saying that the segment should represent a sample of all their top components, while randwulf suggests to look for shared non-Euro admixture. The latter seems more intuitive to me if we're looking for a Jewish segment, or have I misunderstood something?

    I used the tool to paint the difference on a triangulated segment between me and two North African Jewish kits. For both kits (first two in the pic), the most represented region is West Asia followed by East Med, Red Sea and then tiny amounts of North Atlantic (red in the top left), West Med and Sub-saharan. Interesting to note that my North Atlantic is only around 2%. Third pic is the difference between the two Jewish kits.

    segment.png

    So depending on how one interprets it, the tiny stripes of Euro regions could speak either for or against a Jewish origin of the segment
    I wasn't affirming anything, just conjecturing. And I wasn't supposing that all of those regions needed to be present in order to confirm a Jewish origin, just that some combination of the top Western Jewish components would be a clearer sign than a segment with just one of those components alone. Of course it's also logical to focus on the portion of the segment that you have in common with your Jewish match, which you appear to have done.

    But I would suppose you'd also have to take into account your own general background as compared with North African Jews. What are your K13 scores and how do they compare with the North African matches? How big are the segments and who else do they triangulate with? I think there are a lot of factors to take into consideration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    I wasn't affirming anything, just conjecturing. And I wasn't supposing that all of those regions needed to be present in order to confirm a Jewish origin, just that some combination of the top Western Jewish components would be a clearer sign than a segment with just one of those components alone. Of course it's also logical to focus on the portion of the segment that you have in common with your Jewish match, which you appear to have done.

    But I would suppose you'd also have to take into account your own general background as compared with North African Jews. What are your K13 scores and how do they compare with the North African matches? How big are the segments and who else do they triangulate with? I think there are a lot of factors to take into consideration.
    Largest segment on Gedmatch is around 9.8, and on MH 13.4. They triangulate with other Jewish kits (closest populations Sephardic, North African or Italian Jewish), a Moroccan, a couple Hispanic and Italian kits. Here's how our K13 scores compare (NA1 is actually the middle one in prev pic). I'm curious if it looks plausible for the segment to have a European origin (Iberian?). The tiny bit of North Atlantic popping up despite it only resembling 2% of my score makes me wonder that, but I'm even less of an expert.
    NA1 NA2 andyouare
    North Atlantic 13.32 11.58 2.15
    Baltic 3.88 1.12 0.58
    West_Med 21.21 20.29 15.57
    West_Asian 11.5 12.46 20.84
    East_Med 36.36 40.56 37.29
    Red_Sea 8.5 9.25 12.79
    South_Asia / 0.63 3.78
    East_Asian 0.54 0.58 1.56
    Siberian 0.68 / /
    Amerindian / 0.59 /
    Oceanian / 0.86 /
    Northeast_African 2.29 0.24 3.55
    Sub-Saharan 1.7 1.66 1.85
    Last edited by andyouare; 06-30-2020 at 05:23 PM.

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  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyouare View Post
    Largest segment on Gedmatch is around 9.8, and on MH 13.4. They triangulate with other Jewish kits (closest populations Sephardic, North African or Italian Jewish), a Moroccan, a couple Hispanic and Italian kits. Here's how our K13 scores compare (NA1 is actually the middle one in prev pic). I'm curious if it looks plausible for the segment to have a European origin (Iberian?). The tiny bit of North Atlantic popping up despite it only resembling 2% of my score makes me wonder that, but I'm even less of an expert.
    NA1 NA2 andyouare
    North Atlantic 13.32 11.58 2.15
    Baltic 3.88 1.12 0.58
    West_Med 21.21 20.29 15.57
    West_Asian 11.5 12.46 20.84
    East_Med 36.36 40.56 37.29
    Red_Sea 8.5 9.25 12.79
    South_Asia / 0.63 3.78
    East_Asian 0.54 0.58 1.56
    Siberian 0.68 / /
    Amerindian / 0.59 /
    Oceanian / 0.86 /
    Northeast_African 2.29 0.24 3.55
    Sub-Saharan 1.7 1.66 1.85
    Interesting. Those NA Jewish results are pretty close to Eastern Sephardim and even Ashkenazim, though the East_Med for NA2 looks higher than the average for other Western Jews. I have a hunch that these NA Jews are much more descended from Iberian Jews, including possibly converso-descendants, than from local Toshavim, but I'm not too familiar with NA Jewish Eurogenes results.

    The problem with your situation is that your background is predominantly Middle Eastern to begin with, so it's not like a NW or Eastern European looking for non-Euro components that would otherwise be relatively unusual in someone of their background. Your main components overlap considerably with Western Jews' anyway, so there's not much that would really stand out. I think that what's more important, though, is who the segments triangulate with, and if it's mostly people of the ethnicities you mentioned, then it would make a lot of sense, also given the size of the segments, that they would originate some time in the early post-expulsion Sephardic diaspora.

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  11. #27
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    I am in the same situation- significant numbers of Jewish matches with little/no evidence on autosomal calcs. I've been using the by segment tool on Admixture Studio to analyse segments I share with people from particular populations, including Jewish ones. However, you have to upgrade to Pro level to use this tool, which is a small fee but it covers you forever. The nMonte visualisation is one of the better ones out there.
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  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Interesting. Those NA Jewish results are pretty close to Eastern Sephardim and even Ashkenazim, though the East_Med for NA2 looks higher than the average for other Western Jews. I have a hunch that these NA Jews are much more descended from Iberian Jews, including possibly converso-descendants, than from local Toshavim, but I'm not too familiar with NA Jewish Eurogenes results.

    The problem with your situation is that your background is predominantly Middle Eastern to begin with, so it's not like a NW or Eastern European looking for non-Euro components that would otherwise be relatively unusual in someone of their background. Your main components overlap considerably with Western Jews' anyway, so there's not much that would really stand out. I think that what's more important, though, is who the segments triangulate with, and if it's mostly people of the ethnicities you mentioned, then it would make a lot of sense, also given the size of the segments, that they would originate some time in the early post-expulsion Sephardic diaspora.
    Yea, the kits are exclusively of the ethnicities I listed, except for one kit I couldn’t make out and that’s no longer available. Also, indeed the top matches for the NA Jewish kits include surnames of Iberian origin (e.g. Toledano). The Moroccan (Arabic first name, last name is a Berber tribe) matches the NA Jews closer than me and their top matches on Gedmatch include Jewish individuals as close as 30 cM. Converso background is not that common in Italy though, right?

    To clarify though, by "Iberian" I was originally referring to whether the segment could also possibly be West European
    Last edited by andyouare; 07-01-2020 at 06:14 PM.

  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyouare View Post
    Yea, the kits are exclusively of the ethnicities I listed, except for one kit I couldn’t make out and that’s no longer available. Also, indeed the top matches for the NA Jewish kits include surnames of Iberian origin (e.g. Toledano). The Moroccan (Arabic first name, last name is a Berber tribe) matches the NA Jews closer than me and their top matches on Gedmatch include Jewish individuals as close as 30 cM. Converso background is not that common in Italy though, right?

    To clarify though, by "Iberian" I was originally referring to whether the segment could also possibly be West European
    I wouldn't think a segment with a heavy amount of East Med and West Asian would have anything to do with a West European origin, although those components certainly exist among, for instance, the general Iberian population. Of course East Med and West Asian could have other Mediterranean sources, like Sicilian/Southern Italian, but with the particular matches you have, a Jewish origin seems more logical.

    Sephardic matches with Italians are not that rare. A huge amount of Jewish migration in the Mediterranean flowed through Italy, going in multiple directions, over many centuries. The most recent connections would be through the partially converso-descended merchant families that conducted trade throughout the Mediterranean, including parts of Italy, North Africa and the Ottoman Eastern Mediterranean. I have distant matches, for instance, that triangulate between Italians with Livornese Jewish surnames, Tunisian Jews (descendants of "Grana" families) and Jews in Izmir/Smyrna in Turkey.

  14. #30
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    East Mediterranean and West Asian components show up in Northern-Central Europeans too. Large segments would be less likely, but since Jewish people are mixed themselves, they don’t have to pass down large segments even if the admixture was recent. And even that is only worth to discuss in case the segments were correctly assigned in the first place.

    With AJ its easier because any segment will be shared with so many other fully AJ people. That's why even triangulation and 23andme works best for them.

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