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Thread: Who do modern-day Dutch, Frisian, and Flemish people descend from?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstephan View Post
    Also it seems like during the Iron age, in Alsace, there were some individuals that were very close to modern Southern Europeans, I know these samples can't be taken seriously but still.

    Attachment 38162

    Distance to: FRA_IA:ERS88
    0.02045211 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    0.02108222 Spanish_Asturias
    0.02233674 Spanish_Andalucia
    0.02242090 Spanish_Galicia
    0.02299775 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    0.02319104 Spanish_Aragon
    0.02355326 Portuguese
    0.02413071 Spanish_Eivissa
    0.02424161 Spanish_Cantabria
    0.02426348 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
    0.02449897 Spanish_Valencia
    0.02458250 Spanish_Extremadura
    0.02472177 Spanish_Canarias
    0.02520823 Spanish_Barcelones
    0.02539143 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
    0.02539699 Spanish_Penedes
    0.02554496 Spanish_Alacant
    0.02554979 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02559722 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
    0.02571324 Spanish_Pirineu
    0.02599404 Spanish_Menorca
    0.02601518 French_Occitanie
    0.02607374 Italian_Liguria
    0.02609754 Spanish_Mallorca
    0.02617378 Spanish_Lleida
    Yes, that guy is almost like my lost uncle
     
    Distance to: Ruderico
    0.01357091 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    0.01580823 Spanish_Asturias
    0.01705988 Spanish_Aragon
    0.01712881 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
    0.01714466 Spanish_Andalucia
    0.01760547 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    0.01835883 Spanish_Valencia
    0.01868274 Spanish_Galicia
    0.01896921 Spanish_Barcelones
    0.01928235 Portuguese
    0.01978125 Spanish_Eivissa
    0.01982680 Spanish_Pais_Vasco


    On the other hand the Swiss IA sample is also SW Euro-like, I think pre-Roman western Europe is a genetically more complex than we gave it credit for
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA - H20. Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.3492"

    Ruderico

    Celt+Iberia,85
    North_African,10.2
    Rome_Imperial,4.8

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstephan View Post
    Also it seems like during the Iron age, on the territory of current day Alsace, there were some individuals that were very close to modern Southern Europeans, I know these samples can't be taken seriously but still. So, if these individuals were there, why not further north.

    Attachment 38162

    Distance to: FRA_IA:ERS88
    0.02045211 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    0.02108222 Spanish_Asturias
    0.02233674 Spanish_Andalucia
    0.02242090 Spanish_Galicia
    0.02299775 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    0.02319104 Spanish_Aragon
    0.02355326 Portuguese
    0.02413071 Spanish_Eivissa
    0.02424161 Spanish_Cantabria
    0.02426348 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
    0.02449897 Spanish_Valencia
    0.02458250 Spanish_Extremadura
    0.02472177 Spanish_Canarias
    0.02520823 Spanish_Barcelones
    0.02539143 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
    0.02539699 Spanish_Penedes
    0.02554496 Spanish_Alacant
    0.02554979 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02559722 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
    0.02571324 Spanish_Pirineu
    0.02599404 Spanish_Menorca
    0.02601518 French_Occitanie
    0.02607374 Italian_Liguria
    0.02609754 Spanish_Mallorca
    0.02617378 Spanish_Lleida
    he is also close to French Occitania

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    North of the Rhine, is generally a mixture of pre-migration, indeed LNBA population, kind of BB continuation (with a especially in Drenthe TRB touch), combined with incoming 'Anglo-Saxons' and 'Jutes'. The most western part of Friesland was in the fourth century (almost) depopulated so the incoming Anglo-Saxon stream has had the biggest impact here.

    South of the Rhine a combination of 'Belgae-like' ? LNBA population, the Roman impact (the Rhine was the Limes) and Frankish or Rhine-Weser Germanic influx.

    Afterwards some circulation too of course the North somewhat more oriented on the Hanseatic Room, the South more to Central-West Europa.

    Of course this is gross. The reality is more diversified.

    For example I'm autosomal very North European, but my Y-DNA has IMO a relationship to "Egyptian-Roman" military.....
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....th-West-Europe

    So we descend from lots of people
    Thank you. What about ancient Germanic tribes such as the Franks or Saxons, do they descend from Nordic, Bell Beaker continuation, or a mix?

  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    Thank you. What about ancient Germanic tribes such as the Franks or Saxons, do they descend from Nordic, Bell Beaker continuation, or a mix?
    The Franks and Saxons are likely an amalgamation of many populations, same as any other population. I’m not sure we have much aDNA from Franks or Saxons at this point.

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    So does this mean perhaps a group like the English aren’t just British Beaker + Germanic? Maybe British Beaker + Central European Beaker + Germanic?

  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    Thank you. What about ancient Germanic tribes such as the Franks or Saxons, do they descend from Nordic, Bell Beaker continuation, or a mix?
    Yes you can even doubt if there are basically so much genetic differenceS between Britons and Saxons. Because the Bell Beakers that went to England came from NW Germany and NE Dutch as did the Saxons.

    Of course over time, some distance, and due to stuff like genetic drift differences are going to appear.

    People overestimate the genetic difference between celts and germans because they confuse cultural with genetic differences.

    Germans are muted Bell Beaker just like Celts are muted Bell Beakers, of course we can split hairs but that’s what it is: hair cutting differences.

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  11. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Yes you can even doubt if there are basically so much genetic differenceS between Britons and Saxons. Because the Bell Beakers that went to England came from NW Germany and NE Dutch as did the Saxons.

    Of course over time, some distance, and due to stuff like genetic drift differences are going to appear.

    People overestimate the genetic difference between celts and germans because they confuse cultural with genetic differences.

    Germans are muted Bell Beaker just like Celts are muted Bell Beakers, of course we can split hairs but that’s what it is: hair cutting differences.
    I mean the example goes only so far, how northern/Bell Beaker do you think Celts in Central or Southern France were or even in Southern Germany? Because if they were just like insular Celts it would be very hard to explain their modern genetic situation without invoking a lot of Roman or post-Roman southern influence.

  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    I mean the example goes only so far, how northern/Bell Beaker do you think Celts in Central or Southern France were or even in Southern Germany? Because if they were just like insular Celts it would be very hard to explain their modern genetic situation without invoking a lot of Roman or post-Roman southern influence.
    I think not one size fit’s all. The NW Bell Beakers are most probably rooted in Single Grave Culture (see Davidski blog).

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    So since modern English are estimated around 60-70% British Celtic and 30-40% Anglo-Saxon, what would you give for a complete admixture percentage of ancient DNA for a modern Englishman?

    Alternatively, what ancient DNA populations percentages would you give for modern Dutch, Frisians, Flemish, and Germans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    I mean the example goes only so far, how northern/Bell Beaker do you think Celts in Central or Southern France were or even in Southern Germany? Because if they were just like insular Celts it would be very hard to explain their modern genetic situation without invoking a lot of Roman or post-Roman southern influence.
    Maybe these differences can also be explained by a higher presence of Neolithic folks on the continent than on the Isles during the Bronze age spread, which resulted in a higher absorption. they didn't spread on no man's lands.
    Last edited by jstephan; 06-27-2020 at 05:21 PM.

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