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Thread: Who do modern-day Dutch, Frisian, and Flemish people descend from?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    We cannot rule out post-migration era movements as well, not everything has to be explained by Romans and German(ic)s
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/saxon_wars

    Replacement of saxons by populations of east and west Europe.

  2. #22
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    Teutonic crusaders could also drag DNA from too far.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_crusade

  3. #23
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    I wonder if, before seeking the answer to your questions in your historical treatises, you would not all be interested in estimating the foundations of your questions themselves, and the validity of the models which give rise to them. I invite you to an easy little experience. Open Vahaduo and the G25 reference sheet (I used the unscaled references for my part). Take three families of sources as orthogonal as possible, for example, NLD_Bell_Beakers, FR_MN_GRD, and RUS_Bolshoi. And for the targets, take at least the Dutch, the Germans, the English, the Irish and the Swedes. Normally the results should make you think.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    I wonder if, before seeking the answer to your questions in your historical treatises, you would not all be interested in estimating the foundations of your questions themselves, and the validity of the models which give rise to them. I invite you to an easy little experience. Open Vahaduo and the G25 reference sheet (I used the unscaled references for my part). Take three families of sources as orthogonal as possible, for example, NLD_Bell_Beakers, FR_MN_GRD, and RUS_Bolshoi. And for the targets, take at least the Dutch, the Germans, the English, the Irish and the Swedes. Normally the results should make you think.
    I have done that for some members....and I think I got the clue: something with Finnish ancestry?
    For the rest all muted Beakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I have done that for some members....and I think I got the clue: something with Finnish ancestry?
    For the rest all muted Beakers.
    Say a tiny "Finnish-like" affinity. What is obvious from the samples of G25 is also that the German cluster is far more spread than the others, and it's likely the reason why when using the averages one may find that the "Germans" are slightly more southern-shifted. But what if those damned averages are just meaningless, and what if "German" has under a genetical point of view hardly more sense than "French"? Take a look at this PCA (German= brown, Dutch = Orange, Swede = Yellow, English =Blue). The linear border where most individuals plot is the line where the score of Bolshoy-Oleni-Ostrov is zero.

    3way_1_2.jpg
    Last edited by anglesqueville; 06-27-2020 at 10:15 PM.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    I wonder if, before seeking the answer to your questions in your historical treatises, you would not all be interested in estimating the foundations of your questions themselves, and the validity of the models which give rise to them. I invite you to an easy little experience. Open Vahaduo and the G25 reference sheet (I used the unscaled references for my part). Take three families of sources as orthogonal as possible, for example, NLD_Bell_Beakers, FR_MN_GRD, and RUS_Bolshoi. And for the targets, take at least the Dutch, the Germans, the English, the Irish and the Swedes. Normally the results should make you think.
    I don't really know how to use Vahaduo but thank you

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Say a tiny "Finnish-like" affinity. What is obvious from the samples of G25 is also that the German cluster is far more spread than the others, and it's likely the reason why when using the averages one may find that the "Germans" are slightly more southern-shifted. But what if those damned averages are just meaningless, and what if "German" has under a genetical point of view hardly more sense than "French"? Take a look at this PCA (German= brown, Dutch = Orange, Swede = Yellow, English =Blue). The linear border where most individuals plot is the line where the score of Bolshoy-Oleni-Ostrov is zero.

    3way_1_2.jpg
    What's the significance of having no Bolshoy-like admixture?

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    I don't really know how to use Vahaduo but thank you
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/1...ever-been.html

    The G25 spreadsheets are here: https://bga101.blogspot.com/2019/07/...-global25.html

    To make the PCA I used Past 4 (formerly Past 3): https://folk.uio.no/ohammer/past/
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    What's the significance of having no Bolshoy-like admixture?
    Having no Uralic admixture/drift(?) I assume.


    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Say a tiny "Finnish-like" affinity. What is obvious from the samples of G25 is also that the German cluster is far more spread than the others, and it's likely the reason why when using the averages one may find that the "Germans" are slightly more southern-shifted. But what if those damned averages are just meaningless, and what if "German" has under a genetical point of view hardly more sense than "French"? Take a look at this PCA (German= brown, Dutch = Orange, Swede = Yellow, English =Blue). The linear border where most individuals plot is the line where the score of Bolshoy-Oleni-Ostrov is zero.

    3way_1_2.jpg
    That the German cluster has a larger spread than many other countries is to be expected for the sheer population size and area, especially since Germany was far larger in the past.

    People also often seem to forget or do not know, that 12-14 million Germans were expelled from eastern and south-eastern Europe after WWII, many/most of whom had local admixture or even a majority of local ancestry, too. Most middle-aged and younger modern Germans have some ancestry from there. I would assume that those are also the ones most interested in genetic testing (which is not really a thing in Germany to begin with, I don't know a single person, including myself, who did a test).

    So one has to wonder how accurately modern German samples reflect pre-war German genetic structure (which I guess, interests us the most?), at least in the details. Especially since most German samples I've seen don't have any regional information.

    Regarding your PCA specifically, could you perhaps include Poles, Lithuanians and Estonians? Unless I'm interpreting the PCA incorrectly, something seems weird if some Germans have more Uralic admixture than Swedes. Even if these Swedes were exclusively from Scania and if we factor in for the Germans what I said above. Not even Lithuanians (as a stand in for local East Prussian admixture) have that much Uralic ancestry, no?

    But if we ignore some outliers, a cline from Southern(?) Dutch to Swedes, with a center close to the English seems credible, I guess. If this specific PCA can even be interpreted in this way?
    Last edited by Chnodomar; 06-28-2020 at 12:20 PM.

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  15. #30
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    ^Chnodomar: this quickly done PCA had one only aim: to show that interpreting all data under a North-South cline ( explained through a more or less EEF introgression) is likely simplistic. About Germans, it's always the same problem, we don't know how this sample is regionalized. For my part, I'm ready to bet that there's not great differences between a German from Schleswig and a Dutchman from Friesland. About what you told about the Uralic-like component in Germans and Swedes, I agree, and I was myself a little surprised by those results. I see only two possible (and non-exclusive) hypotheses. One: an artefact of a too quickly thought model. Two: the Swedish sample is mostly from South-Sweden. As it was not at all the topic of this thread, I didn't push the investigation further. About your last sentence, I'm in agreement, it's what this PCA seems to show up.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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