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Thread: The case for E-M123* (without E-M34 coming out of Israel, Specifically)

  1. #1
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    The case for E-M123* (without E-M34 coming out of Israel, Specifically)

    I find little awareness in Forums, Groups, Pages, etc. I have joined, that : Older Y-DNA subclades can reside among younger ones.
    There are many examples, but the ones on the matter can be seen with J2a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...-M267#Genetics) & J2b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J)and their respective subclades. The millenium or century another subclad comes in, does not mean the older one goes extinct, nor that if they both branch/ mutate further, that they have to be another people all together; although, eventually they will drift.

    Further example: Out of the Levant (OL) Asian findings of early E-Z827, E-Z830 (upstream of E-M123) & E-Y31991, E-Pf4428 ( down stream of E-M123*) have been dated as during or after the Assyrian empire and found all around itís empire. Before those times, Natufians descendants have been dated Inside of the Levant (IL) and down to Ethiopia. Also not until after bronze age are E-M123 descendants found in Europe and all over. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6062619/ alsohttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4231410/#sup1
    The above times coincide with when the Assyrians misplaced the Northern Kingdom Israelites.
    https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/...Is_OEoGI1ij28Q

    Natufians were an E-M123 dominated Haplogroup, All other people that surrounded them around the Levant (a.k.a. The Scythians, Assyrians, Saka, other Iranians, Lebaneese/ Cannanites, Philistines, etc.) are proven to have been from other Haplotypes (during that eraís archeological findings). Note: In more modern times descendants of E-M123* can be found all over the Levant and around it.

    95%+ of E-M123 are also E-M34. But E-M123* are most frequently so far, out of Northern Portugal; although, there are others all around. I have not seen a single sample case where E-M123* is found in Africa or in Saudi Arabia. It seems to be a strictly Levant originated Haplo Type.

    It also insinuates that E-M123* may just be a small minority of Israelite descendants, and just mutated SNPís differently and since the subclad is so small and hard to find, they just get lost among Israelite Diasporas. Note: E-PF2025 ( under E-M123 mutation but no E-M34 either) is just as old as E-M123* and yet unquestioned and predominantly Jewish. S(https://jewishdna.net/index.html

    So why group E-M123* with E-M34ís instead of E-M123 descendants (E-Y31991) having itís own branch like E-PF2025?
    How else does one (more reasonably) 1) explain the same archeological path and time frames as the other 2 Israelite Diasporaís? 2) The same dominating E-M123 haplogroups not found elsewhere? 3) And the same historical clustering in different nations after the Diasporas?

    Sure, after the Diasporas they could have joined Phoienecians, Visigoths and or Romans, but the main clusters are found where the other Israelites went.

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  3. #2
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    Also not until after bronze age are E-M123 descendants found in Europe and all over.
    E-Y29605 is one of the paleolithic (14 kyo) European downstreams of E-M123 (Alpine survivers?)

    P. S. Also try to contact moderator Ruderico, he belongs to the same branch
    Last edited by Farroukh; 06-27-2020 at 11:26 AM.
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    I am also E-Y31991 - good to see other rare folk around. Our line could be either Paleolithic or Neolithic or even Chalcolithic in Europe as seen in Yfull - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/ - but seems too old to be connected with the Bronze age or later migrations. I am not sure if I understand correctly but you see connection between 31991 and Jewish people? I must say the Jewish people are probably the best studied ethnicity in the world and so far there are none that would be 31991/4428.
    You are right about the Natufian connection, however, the Levantine branch of out haplogroup is all Arabic. Also, there are people in Tunis who are pf4428 but I don't know details about them. Worth mentioning 2 Armenians also.
    In Europe our line is spread mostly in the West - Portugal is the hot spot, also Spain, Fance, England, Norway, Germany, Austria and Italy. In the East, it is found only in Bulgaria, Romania and Moldova - what Im poised to call a Thracian branch.
    If you wish you can upload to Yfull where you will get a branch and time to most recent common ancestor. I am the Bulgarian sample.
    Last edited by Velislav; 06-27-2020 at 01:51 PM.

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    I agree with Velislav, there's really nothing to connect our clade with ancient Israel, or even ancient Israelites besides a distant common ancestor, our common clade is just way too old. It would be cool, as we'd have good information about their culture and mentality, but not only is there no evidence to support it, all we have so far makes that extremely unlikely. There were a bunch of ancient South Levant samples from the Bronze Age and all E-M123 were positive M34..maybe our ancestors cremated the remains, maybe they were in the north Levant, or simply already in Europe. In fact, looking at modern individuals positive for Y134104, and the TMRCA (nearly 7000 years) at yfull the last option is the most likely.
    The fact that there are Y31991 in cultures unrelated to the Levant (Scythian, Indo-Aryans) show that at least some clades under Y31991 had been out of the Levant for centuries before them.

    Also E-PF2025 isn't under E-M123, it's a parallel branch with a common ancestor some 18000 years ago, which makes it quite irrelevant for us.


    Edit: Farroukh made a map a while ago, I tend to agree with it, although it might have moved a bit more to the north, over the Alps, after going through the Balkans. Naturally we're just speculating here

    Last edited by Ruderico; 06-28-2020 at 12:26 PM.
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~800AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA - H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

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    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

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    I agree, however, I think that if our line is present nowadays around the Semitic world, it should have been there in the Bronze age too. That study for Southern Levant just could not locate such samples. 31991/4428 is so rare now that I do believe it was the same case in the Bronze age and probably earlier. Also, like the case in Pakistan, could have been always clan oriented, so small isolated pockets here and there are more likely to be found - and for the same reason - less likely to end up found.

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    Total extinction of this line in Semitic world of Levant I associate with pagan cults of child sacrifices in Ancient Canaan (See: Tophet)

    See also: Human sacrifices in Phoenicia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farroukh View Post
    Total extinction of this line in Semitic world of Levant I associate with pagan cults of child sacrifices in Ancient Canaan (See: Tophet)

    See also: Human sacrifices in Phoenicia
    Why would child sacrifice have decimated only this one particular line?
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

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    Not only this one. Also many others too I presume.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farroukh View Post
    Not only this one. Also many others too I presume.
    That's not how it works. Infanticide was extremely common. Even the Aztecs wouldn't have wiped out any y-dna lines just through their sacrifices and they were really into sacrificing people. If they wiped any y-dna lines out it was due to regular genocide. It was pragmatic, and especially before the advent of agriculture it was often a necessity.

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    We have a few E-M123 downstream subclades (with definite Levantine homeland) but without Levantine bearers.
    Infanticide is one of the reasons for ancient times.
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