Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 28

Thread: Has anyone been able to use Y dna results to determine an origin?

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,675
    Ethnicity
    Northern Ireland
    Nationality
    Northern Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L193(BY2634)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M222

    Northern Ireland Ireland Scotland

    Has anyone been able to use Y dna results to determine an origin?

    It has been a personal quest to determine where my Y line originated in Scotland and when the line came to Ulster. Tyrone Bowes make it seem easy to do this, but I am struggling. I query many geneaological experts and am never given concrete answers. Many of the places suggested are conflicting. One suggested Northern England, but I don't have many Northern English matches and another suggested the Highlands.

    Unfortunately, there are few close Scottish matches and those that are 'close' are at about 800 years out, so their families could've moved since then.

    I have gone through my matches at the Y111 level and they are from all over the country. What worsens this is that a lot of my matches are colonial Americans with weak family trees, or family trees that end in Ulster.

    How do I determine a region of origin with my Big Y or Y111 results?

    Y111 matches.jpg
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 06-27-2020 at 11:49 AM.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    In my case, I'm an American with y-dna ancestry going back to the colonial period, but I'm brickwalled in Maryland c. 1750. However, I belong to a haplotype cluster with a solid identifying SNP that is pretty easily tied to the Welsh Borders region. That's as precise as it gets for me thus far. The closest I can come to a village is a 106/111 match with a different surname whose mdka was in Llanafan-fawr, Powys, Wales, in about 1670. The next closest to pinpointing a village are a couple of 65/67 matches of mine who are cousins (to each other; again, different surname from mine) and whose family has been in Cardeston, Shropshire, within spitting distance of the Welsh border, as long as they can remember. All three of those matches have Welsh surnames.

    Llanafan Fawr to Cardeston.jpg

    In your case, we'd have to know a lot more about you and your matches to give you any kind of educated answer.
    Last edited by rms2; 06-27-2020 at 02:20 PM.

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-27-2020),  Riverman (06-30-2020)

  4. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,675
    Ethnicity
    Northern Ireland
    Nationality
    Northern Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L193(BY2634)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M222

    Northern Ireland Ireland Scotland
    I donít know what information you would like from me. I have gone to BIG Y and have two matches.

    My SNP is downstream of FGC32004. Many of my matches though are BY207.

    I have 127 Y111 matches.

    Elliott/Ellwell - 21
    McClean/McClain - 28
    McDonald - 7
    Duncan - 3
    Cumming - 2

    I also have a few matches that look to be potentially border names I.e Hall, Crozier, Holmes, Hollingsworth and Holder.

    Closest Scottish matches origins

    GD 6 - Isle of Skye
    GD 6 - Angus
    GD 6 - Wigtownshire
    GD 6 - Mull
    GD 7 - Glasgow
    GD 7 - Liverpool
    GD 7 - East Lothian
    GD 8 - Perth
    GD 8 - Campbeltown
    GD 8 - Durham
    GD 8 - Campbeltown

    So as you can see, there is no trend. Itís all over.
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 06-27-2020 at 03:06 PM.

  5. #4
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    The trend I see is that your matches in the west are far more numerous than your eastern matches, but all those you have pegged on that map are somewhat distant.

    You may have to just be patient and in the meantime try to recruit any autosomal matches you get who share your surname or a reasonable variant.

    Still don't know your surname.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-27-2020),  Peter MacDonald (06-28-2020)

  7. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    339
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L21 L513*

    United States of America Ireland Germany Belgium Wallonia
    The only value of Y-DNA as far as determining origins is in grouping matches together whose combined knowledge of their ancestry through traditional research can shed light on where that Y-DNA line spent certain timeframes. Once you go back far enough you don't have any knowledge from traditional research but ancient bones can help there; unfortunately it's usually not an option to conduct archaeological digs on your known ancestors within genealogical timeframes. So if your definition of "origins" is within the time of records, you're pretty much stuck with what you and your matches know together.

    I wouldn't hold Tyrone Bowes up as a basis of comparison; his methods have far too many assumptions that can't be validated for specific lines and his reasoning is flawed generally on both Y-DNA and historical grounds. He tells people what they want to hear, not what is provable about their origins.

    To your original question as to "has anyone been able to use Y-DNA to determine an origin" the answer is yes when the combined knowledge from the matches gives it up. Maybe the best example I can think of is one of my Vance project subgroups is very clearly from a change of surname in the Maxwell minor nobility branches in south-east Scotland around the 1400-1500s. We can trace the Vance line back to Ireland and pick it up again further back in the Maxwells in Scotland after a gap of about 150 years, so we still have to trace the exact ancestors in between, but the two lines are separately very well documented through traditional genealogy. But that's basically luck.

    Personally I think if your current set of matches don't give you enough information to analyze your Y-DNA line's location in the timeframe you're interested in, you need to recruit more matches. If that timeframe was within 5-8 generations back then autosomal DNA might help you locate other more distantly-related candidates for Y-DNA testing; otherwise you're reduced to chasing up likely suspects in certain geographies. We've actually done that a few times and I know of others who have also; basically just gathering people from a phone book who match a given surname and contacting them to ask if they'd be willing to test. In one case for me that worked out nicely, in other cases it has not been as successful.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dave-V For This Useful Post:

     Peter MacDonald (06-28-2020),  Revmac (06-27-2020)

  9. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,675
    Ethnicity
    Northern Ireland
    Nationality
    Northern Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L193(BY2634)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M222

    Northern Ireland Ireland Scotland
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The trend I see is that your matches in the west are far more numerous than your eastern matches, but all those you have pegged on that map are somewhat distant.

    You may have to just be patient and in the meantime try to recruit any autosomal matches you get who share your surname or a reasonable variant.

    Still don't know your surname.
    My surname is ďCumminsĒ which is an Irish variant, so I am not sure that you can deduce anything from that.

    Yes there is a pattern of western(ish) Scotland. But I seem to have half BY207 and half FGC32004 matches. Most of my close matches are actually BY207.

    Given the timeframeís covered in STRís Iím surprised I donít have closer GD Scottish matches.

  10. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,675
    Ethnicity
    Northern Ireland
    Nationality
    Northern Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L193(BY2634)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M222

    Northern Ireland Ireland Scotland
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave-V View Post
    The only value of Y-DNA as far as determining origins is in grouping matches together whose combined knowledge of their ancestry through traditional research can shed light on where that Y-DNA line spent certain timeframes. Once you go back far enough you don't have any knowledge from traditional research but ancient bones can help there; unfortunately it's usually not an option to conduct archaeological digs on your known ancestors within genealogical timeframes. So if your definition of "origins" is within the time of records, you're pretty much stuck with what you and your matches know together.

    I wouldn't hold Tyrone Bowes up as a basis of comparison; his methods have far too many assumptions that can't be validated for specific lines and his reasoning is flawed generally on both Y-DNA and historical grounds. He tells people what they want to hear, not what is provable about their origins.

    To your original question as to "has anyone been able to use Y-DNA to determine an origin" the answer is yes when the combined knowledge from the matches gives it up. Maybe the best example I can think of is one of my Vance project subgroups is very clearly from a change of surname in the Maxwell minor nobility branches in south-east Scotland around the 1400-1500s. We can trace the Vance line back to Ireland and pick it up again further back in the Maxwells in Scotland after a gap of about 150 years, so we still have to trace the exact ancestors in between, but the two lines are separately very well documented through traditional genealogy. But that's basically luck.

    Personally I think if your current set of matches don't give you enough information to analyze your Y-DNA line's location in the timeframe you're interested in, you need to recruit more matches. If that timeframe was within 5-8 generations back then autosomal DNA might help you locate other more distantly-related candidates for Y-DNA testing; otherwise you're reduced to chasing up likely suspects in certain geographies. We've actually done that a few times and I know of others who have also; basically just gathering people from a phone book who match a given surname and contacting them to ask if they'd be willing to test. In one case for me that worked out nicely, in other cases it has not been as successful.
    Well the American Ferguson states that his line comes from the Glenshee valley. Iím not sure of that as I have matches from all over Scotland.

    I must say I am surprised at the large GD for my Scottish STR matches given the time frame. It makes me query if my family came in the 1400ís even if I know thatís not true.

    Yes you are right. I donít have enough close Scottish matches to determine a place of origin. Given that I am supposed to be an NPE Iím not sure who I would recruit.

    I have no same surname matches autosomally. If I were to try to go through my Autosomal matches what would you say I should look for?? And how many Centimorgans?

  11. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    445
    Sex
    Location
    Tallinn
    Ethnicity
    Ukrainian
    Y-DNA (P)
    N-L550 > Z16975
    mtDNA (M)
    H10a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-L21 > Z17662
    mtDNA (P)
    I3

    Ukraine Lithuania European Union Estonia Scotland
    I have a similar quest for information through Y-DNA. Now the unexpected aspect of my search is that my Scottish ancestor migrated to Eastern Europe (and ended up in deep Siberia). According to 23andme autosomal prediction it is around 1700-1850. Changed surname in assimilation process. Taken surname started on Alba- but had a Slavic suffix.
    Y-DNA, both SNP and STR are pointing towards Argyll. So far the most common surname in the list of matches is Campbell at around 20% of the matches.
    Hidden Content
    > Hidden Content
    >> R1a1a1b1a2a1a1a1j1

  12. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,675
    Ethnicity
    Northern Ireland
    Nationality
    Northern Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L193(BY2634)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M222

    Northern Ireland Ireland Scotland
    Quote Originally Posted by Aha View Post
    I have a similar quest for information through Y-DNA. Now the unexpected aspect of my search is that my Scottish ancestor migrated to Eastern Europe (and ended up in deep Siberia). According to 23andme autosomal prediction it is around 1700-1850. Changed surname in assimilation process. Taken surname started on Alba- but had a Slavic suffix.
    Y-DNA, both SNP and STR are pointing towards Argyll. So far the most common surname in the list of matches is Campbell at around 20% of the matches.
    Oh wow that is fascinating! I wonder why they moved there.

    What level have you tested to? How are you determine Argyll?

  13. #10
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    My surname is “Cummins” which is an Irish variant, so I am not sure that you can deduce anything from that.

    . . .
    Maybe, maybe not, but one thing is certain: you can't deduce anything from nothing. So, thanks for telling us your surname.

    I'll stick with what I said in post #4 above, which Dave-V seconded, that is, you should look for male autosomal matches who share your surname or a reasonable variant (like Cummings) and try to recruit them for y-dna testing. You might have to pay for a test or two, but it could be worth it.
    Last edited by rms2; 06-28-2020 at 01:32 PM.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-28-2020)

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-14-2019, 10:11 PM
  2. Alanson's my origin results
    By Alanson in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-09-2018, 03:36 AM
  3. Replies: 26
    Last Post: 02-16-2017, 02:10 AM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-08-2015, 04:51 PM
  5. My Origin results
    By jesus in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-19-2015, 10:41 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •