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Thread: Has anyone been able to use Y dna results to determine an origin?

  1. #21
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    I've been able to determine an origin based on Y-DNA results. My surname isn't localised as Kelly is a very common surname with multiple origins. The origin is based on the combined knowledge of the matches. Most matches have their origins around the Roscommon/Galway border. Every branch has a Kelly with an origin in these locations. It also matches up with the family lore associated with the origin of the surname in that part of Ireland.

    However, NPEs can also be used to determine an origin. The NPE surname can often be a surname that was also in the area. I believe that Bowes uses NPE surnames this way. This is seen in our group where we have Dyer, Heavey and Madden which are surnames associated with Connacht. Also looking the history of a surname and surnames associated with the family can help to identify an origin. For example, there is a Keogh in our group and the history associated with the family has Keogh descended from a common ancestor O'Kelly who lived in the 1200s. You could look at the different origins for Cummins and variants in Scotland and try to find the tribal association with other surnames. One of the NPEs successfully identified his Kelly ancestor. He thought that his paternal was from Denmark but found the connection to a Kelly ancestor in Canada.

    I really wouldn't get hung up on the spelling of a surname as they can change so easily through the years. A surname in my family has changed from Feenaghty to Finaghty to Finnerty.

    You can use STR matches to determine a pattern for an origin. However, you have lots of STR matches that aren't actually closely connected, likely due to convergence. Therefore, I would focus on your closest Big Y matches followed by the next closest SNP branch and so on to try and identify an origin. In your case, you'd be focusing on matches positive for S2292 followed by A7711 followed by BY2634 followed by BY651 followed by FGC32004 followed by S5982, etc. You say that a lot of your STR matches are BY207 but I wouldn't give them as much attention as your closest matches since SNP testing has shown that they're not closely connected.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Y-DNA (P) ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    mtDNA (P) ancestor: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA (M) ancestor: McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA Great grandfather: Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)
    Y-DNA 2x great grandfather: Higgins b. c1816 in Co. Roscommon (R-DF109)
    Y-DNA 3x great grandfather: Fleming b. c1829 in Co. Roscommon (R-Z23534)

  2. #22
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    Thanks. So should I look at surnames within those branches and identify common locations??

    I do have a lot of BY207 which mostly seem to be McClean. They have a highland islands skewing.

    It’s a pity I couldn’t filter BY207 out of my matches. I will try on Excel.
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 06-30-2020 at 07:56 PM.

  3. #23
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    Through analysis of my Y111 matches and the Vance L193 records, I have found 51 BY207 matches (including my 109 GD match - how does that work out?). I seem to have a very close connection with BY207. I have 21 FGC32004 matches.

    Nearly all of my BY207 matches are McClean, FGC32004 has a much broader range of surnames: Elliott, Hall, Holder, Wilson, Montgomery, Profitt, Crozier and Roland. The lack of clustering outside Elliott, concerns me.

    Looking through my FGC32004 matches, SEVERAL have end points in North Carolina. I only have five directly from Scotland, in Perthshire, East Lothian, Glasgow and Roxburgh but two matches are from one ancestor.
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 06-30-2020 at 10:24 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Through analysis of my Y111 matches and the Vance L193 records, I have found 51 BY207 matches (including my 109 GD match - how does that work out?). I seem to have a very close connection with BY207. I have 21 FGC32004 matches
    SNPs are more reliable than STRs. STRs are most useful in conjunction with SNPs but aren't more reliable by themselves. Your connection to the BY207 is more distant than to FGC32004. The connection to BY207 isn't as close as your connection to matches positive for FGC32004 since you are negative for BY207.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Y-DNA (P) ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    mtDNA (P) ancestor: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA (M) ancestor: McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA Great grandfather: Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)
    Y-DNA 2x great grandfather: Higgins b. c1816 in Co. Roscommon (R-DF109)
    Y-DNA 3x great grandfather: Fleming b. c1829 in Co. Roscommon (R-Z23534)

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FionnSneachta View Post
    SNPs are more reliable than STRs. STRs are most useful in conjunction with SNPs but aren't more reliable by themselves. Your connection to the BY207 is more distant than to FGC32004. The connection to BY207 isn't as close as your connection to matches positive for FGC32004 since you are negative for BY207.
    How does he share 109 markers with me though?? 🤔

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    How does he share 109 markers with me though?? ��
    As Robert Casey said, BY207 YSTR matches are just random YSTR overlap and are not important.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Y-DNA (P) ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    mtDNA (P) ancestor: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA (M) ancestor: McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA Great grandfather: Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)
    Y-DNA 2x great grandfather: Higgins b. c1816 in Co. Roscommon (R-DF109)
    Y-DNA 3x great grandfather: Fleming b. c1829 in Co. Roscommon (R-Z23534)

  7. #27
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    I keep coming across this Cumming in Tyrone Bowes case studies maps. Page 10.

    https://www.keepandshare.com/doc/825...f-1-8-meg?da=y

    See that it is beside Ferguson? I wonder if it that could be where they are from?

  8. #28
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    Here is a quick summary of my experience combining Y DNA along with traditional paper/document research. I didn't go too deep into detail, just hitting that major wave tops of my experience.

    I started using genetics in 2010 to assist with my MacDonald paternal ancestry. Up until this point I had my line traced back to my 5x Great Grandfather Martin MacDonald who was born in 1755 and passed away in 1836 in Knoydart, Nova Scotia (the area he settled in 1785, which he is attributed to naming after where he emigrated from in Scotland). The results of my first Y DNA test indicated that my paternal line was not of the Clan Donald Chiefly lines and I would have to search elsewhere for the origins of direct paternal line. Overlapping with the timeframe which I received my results I became aware of Martin MacDonald (1755-1836) being included in genealogical charts from the Glengarry, Ontario area of Canada. Further to the knowledge of these charts it was also discovered that Martin’s son John MacDonald died in the Glengarry, Ontario area in 1858 where his death was recorded by the St Columbian Roman Catholic Church and also by a priest (Father John MacDonald) who kept genealogical records of Scottish emigrants. In Father John’s diary, the death of John MacDonald records him as coming from Nova Scotia and being the son of Martin, son of Donald, son of John, son of Angus.

    Heading back to the genealogical charts .... Although the charts listed the names of ancestors, genealogists (both professional and amateur) where unable to answer basic questions pertaining to Clan Iain Ruadh, such as an overall history of the Clan, timeline or geographic origins. One major issue with the charts showed the Clan Chiefs to be of the Haplogroup R1A, where I was R1B. After playing around with this idea of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh, I eventually wrote off my Family’s inclusion onto these charts. I believed at the time Martin MacDonald’s mentioned as a mistake and/or possibly fabricated and continued my searching for my paternal ancestry elsewhere, even though I did have paternal Y DNA matches from the Glengarry area of Canada (with genealogies not showing a linkage to my paternal line).

    My belief of not belonging to Clan Iain Ruadh was put to rest in February 2017 when I received an email from a MacDonell who had a Y DNA match with me and upon further testing we were able to determine we were both positive for the SNP BY154, which indicated a fairly recent (in genealogical terms) common paternal ancestor. Garry and I had not shared any type of research, however both of our Families had traditions of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh. Any remote disbelieve of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh melted away upon receiving a gravestone picture from Mr. MacDonell of the Auchterawe Roman Catholic burial ground in Inverness, Scotland. The gravestone belongs to his 3x Great Grandfather John MacDonell, on the gravestone (which was erected by John MacDonell’s son Captain Ewen Macdonell) “..John MacDonell of Clan Iain Ruadh..”. This connection was the motivation I needed to keep my research going.

    Screen Shot 2020-07-01 at 11.01.10 AM.png

    My research had another two breaks with two testers from the Glengarry, Ontario area who had family traditions and paper trails of paternal descent from Clan Ian Ruadh. Both testers have matched closely to myself and other persons who are BY154+ and have genealogies that actually appear to fit into the older genealogical charts from the Glengayy, Ontario area I previously mentioned. One of these tester's ancestors (a father and son) where Loyalists who petitioned for Land in the Glengarry area. In their petitions, the son Duncan McDonell states that he was “from Glen Morrison, Late of Tryon County, N.Y. Province...came to Canada in 1780”

    Screen Shot 2020-07-01 at 11.01.52 AM.png

    The father, John McDonell states at the time of the petition he was from “...Lot 17, Cornwall Township, N. Johnson, Late of Tryon County, N. York Province...”

    Screen Shot 2020-07-01 at 11.02.39 AM.png

    This is an area for further research, perhaps the family when in Scotland relocated from Knoydart to Glenmoriston, however it is most likely that the was originally from Glenmoriston. Important to note that there is a Clan Iain Ruadh MacDonald Sept that originated in Glenmoriston. This past summer (2019) I was on a family trip to Scotland and arranged to be shown around Knoydart by the Knoydart Ranger Mrs. Dowel and by Mr. Wilson.

    A side bar:
    Martin was the son of Donald, son of John, son of Angus. Luckily for me, Martin was a very uncommon name among the MacDonalds, which made my research less difficult.
    Two records of the Scottish Privy Council that are of great interest to me due to the location of Knoydart and the first name Martin associated with the MacDonalds of this area are:
    "In the Record of the Scottish Privy Council there is a 1628 record that contains events involving three brother in Knoydart: Martin, Donald and Angus.

    Next we come to 1628, in which year an action was pursued by: - Thomas Fraser of Streachin
    Donald McGillemichell in Mureton
    Alexander Cowy there
    Donald McEane McWilliam there William McFrenshe there
    against:
    ................
    ................
    Martin McEane VcRorie Donald McEane VcRorie
    Angus McEane VcRorie ......"
    In another entry pertaining to this matter only Martin and Donald are mentioned with some further information provided:
    Marine McEane VcRorie VcEane Roy in Knoydert Donald McEane Roy VcEane Roy in Killastardertach

    Denis Rixson’s book, Knoydart: A history and noticed a chart of the various namings of Knoydart’s Settlements. Of the ones that most likely to be connected with the place name “Killstarderach”, two locations caught my attention:
    "Knoydart’s Settlements
    1637 Charter: Kelist
    Modern Name: Kylesknoydart Canada List: Kiles Knodartach Census Returns: Kyles"
    Through these records, I felt that the “Knoydert” mentioned in the Privy Council Record was an anglicization of the Gaelic place name of Niegart.
    End sidebar

    ALSO!!!!!! I should mention that while in Arisaig during the weekend of the Arisaig Highland games, I had the great fortunate of randomly being in the same place as BY154+ Group member (Mr. Gillis) and his wife. Talk about a small world!!!

    The next day we were heading to Knoydart and Mr. Gillis agreed to come along. One thing that was learned on that trip was that there were once a lot of Gillis across the narrow from Kyles Knoydart in Morar.......

    Screen Shot 2020-07-01 at 10.43.44 AM.png

    So back to how I met Mr. Wilson. I hired the Knoydart Ranger Land Rover to get me around Knoydart to visit both Niegart and Kyles Knoydart. Unfortunately (but as it turns out not so), Kyles Knoydart was inaccessible, but I was advised that Mr. Wilson could provide a boat tour to take me to Kyles Knoydart. I relayed my personal interest in both location due to my genealogical research. Iain Insisted on meeting us at the edge of his property (Inverguseran) to show us around. So, you could imagine my surprise when Mr. Wilson brought me to a burial ground on his property, which I was totally unaware of its existence. And even more so when he brought me to a graveslab for a D. MacDonald of Kyles Knoydart who died in 1805. This could potentially be the resting place of my 6x Great Grandfather Donald MacDonald.

    In October 2019 I had a Y DNA match with a P. McDonald from Edmonton. His family was from Glengarry Ontario and lived what is locally referred to as the “Brown House”. I was in Kingston for work training in September and October and was planning on heading to the Glengarry, Ontario area for one of the weekends, the Wednesday prior to visiting I received P. McDonalds match and corresponded with him. That weekend I found the Brown House and went over to introduce myself. The person living there was actually descended from the same ancestor as Patrick, luckily, she was the Family historian, she knew of Patrick’s Father and that he moved out west but that was it. Pretty amazing that a DNA test led me to that house. Both McDonald lines have taken the Big Y700, and Y111 results indicate a clear match. Their family line is known as the “Taylor” MacDonalds who descend from a Donald “Taylor” MacDonald who it appears might be a brother to my 5x Great Grandfather Martin MacDonald (will have to wait until the New Year to confirm this through testing).

    Through SNP testing of families with know Clan Iain Ruadh traditions on the older chart below has been proved to some degree. The ancestry lines in green have been determined to be closely related with advanced SNP testing. Hopefully more direct paternal descendants of Clan Iain Ruadh will be discovered in the near future:

    Screen Shot 2020-07-01 at 10.45.21 AM.png

    While I have had the opportunity to connect with my MacDonald kin and have been forming a picture of to whom and how we are related to one another through a combination of traditional paper trails and advance Y DNA testing, there is still much more research to be done.....(still waiting on two important Big Y700 Tests to be completed).
    Last edited by Peter MacDonald; 07-01-2020 at 03:13 PM.

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