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Thread: Any migration from Middle East to South Asia?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Maybe more samples are needed?.
    Like always. But more is a relative thing, with so little (almost nothing) we have from the IVC so far. Also, I think its not about proving the immigration and expansion of Iranian farmers, this should be a given fact, but the proportion of Iranian farmer : Iranian-like Northern HG - AASI. And the proportions might differ, significantly, between time and place and there might even be additional ancestral components from Central Asia.
    Like early Mehrgarh vs late Mohenjo Daro might prove to be quite different.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    They had the full package from further West, so there was some major influx for sure. Probably the West Eurasian Iranian-like element was already a mix of "true Iranian farmers" from further West and local, mostly West Eurasian, but somewhat AASI mixed, hunter gatherers. As in other regions, there might have been multiple waves of post-Neolithic immigrants from further West, each adding to the cultural and genetic landscape of the later IVC and Mehrgarh in particular. This was known even before genetic testing, because the physical type of the IVC, the predominant one at least, was clearly Iranian derived and the more West and North you went, the more so. Its a gradient.
    Since the IVC people had their own genetic profile, they either were from a so far unknown branch of Iranian farmers or they mixed with local hunter gatherers of both more West Eurasian and only later AASI kind, or most likely, it was both with the possibility of more than one wave of colonists coming in.
    There seems to be one major wave, because pretty much all of the SIS2 samples have no or very little ANF. From the time ANF spreads into the Iranian Plateau to Aceramic/PPN cultures in SE Iran really caps when it entered. There are important Epipaleolithic and Neolithic sites in SE Iran (Eastern Jazmurian, Spidej, Bam). The early brick styles at Bam and Spidej in particular, are identical to that of Merhgarh and the same barley variety is found. The earliest conservative date for Merhgarh Neolithic is 7000 BCE, with the main admixture with AASI HGs dated to 5500-3700 BCE.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Like always. But more is a relative thing, with so little (almost nothing) we have from the IVC so far. Also, I think its not about proving the immigration and expansion of Iranian farmers, this should be a given fact, but the proportion of Iranian farmer : Iranian-like Northern HG - AASI. And the proportions might differ, significantly, between time and place and there might even be additional ancestral components from Central Asia.
    Like early Mehrgarh vs late Mohenjo Daro might prove to be quite different.
    There is only Rakhigarhi and a few IVC samples from outside the IVC's cultural horizon in Central Asia and Iran.

    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    There seems to be one major wave, because pretty much all of the SIS2 samples have no or very little ANF. From the time ANF spreads into the Iranian Plateau to Aceramic/PPN cultures in SE Iran really caps when it entered. There are important Epipaleolithic and Neolithic sites in SE Iran (Eastern Jazmurian, Spidej, Bam). The early brick styles at Bam and Spidej in particular, are identical to that of Merhgarh and the same barley variety is found. The earliest conservative date for Merhgarh Neolithic is 7000 BCE, with the main admixture with AASI HGs dated to 5500-3700 BCE.

    What about the Jiroft and Helmand cultures?, did they develop from similar Neolithic sites?.

  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    There is only Rakhigarhi and a few IVC samples from outside the IVC's cultural horizon in Central Asia and Iran.



    What about the Jiroft and Helmand cultures?, did they develop from similar Neolithic sites?.
    Those are largely Bronze Age cultures , not Neolithic ones.
    Jiroft has more of its limes further West. Helmand is more complicated it starts off with Merhgarh in its very early stages but becomes part of the Jiroft culture for the rest of its existence, genetically in later stages it would be an Amalgam of Turan like and proto IVC/Merhgarh ancestry. PPN Merhgarh is far more ancient than Jiroft and Helmand cultures, easily 3.5-4.0 millennia apart.

     
    Code:
    Target: IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1:I11478
    Distance: 1.8845% / 0.01884477
    59.8	TKM_Geoksyur_En
    40.2	IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_8726

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    The reconstructed Proto Elamo-Dravidian language has words linked with agriculture apparently which would make that case stronger.



    Maybe more samples are needed?.
    Both ancient Mesolithic and Neolithic DNA samples are needed from the north of India or Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    There seems to be one major wave, because pretty much all of the SIS2 samples have no or very little ANF. From the time ANF spreads into the Iranian Plateau to Aceramic/PPN cultures in SE Iran really caps when it entered. There are important Epipaleolithic and Neolithic sites in SE Iran (Eastern Jazmurian, Spidej, Bam). The early brick styles at Bam and Spidej in particular, are identical to that of Merhgarh and the same barley variety is found. The earliest conservative date for Merhgarh Neolithic is 7000 BCE, with the main admixture with AASI HGs dated to 5500-3700 BCE.

    Looking at this map, Its seems to me in ancient times when no boundaries existed there was a big connection (even culturally) between Iran, Central Asia and South Asia. I think IVC folks must have been directly linked to people of Iran and Central Asia. Today that connection between South Asia with Central Asia/Iran is very little.
    Last edited by akash; 06-30-2020 at 11:47 PM.

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  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by akash View Post
    Looking at this map, Its seems to me in ancient times when no boundaries existed there was a big connection (even culturally) between Iran, Central Asia and South Asia. I think IVC folks must have been directly linked to people of Iran and Central Asia. Today that connection between South Asia with Central Asia/Iran is very little.

    Ironically, from the Neolithic to Eneolithic periods there is not much interaction with the vast majority of South Asia, their world was largely connected to the Eastern Iranian Agricultural Complex and to a much lesser degree with Sarazm related people in Central Asia. The world east of the Indus was alien to them, akin to how European colonists viewed the American Wild West. I would say post 4200 BC is when you see a dramatic movement into the Indus and where there were far more ASI HGs living and cultures become far more localized. That also coincides within the timeframe of when the major mixing occurred beyond the AASI accrued in Balochistan and explains why IVC populations are so heterogeneous. I would still say post Merhgarh cultures like Nal/Kulli in Balochistan maintained strong links to Jiroft and acted as links to major towns on the Indus.
    Last edited by pegasus; 07-01-2020 at 06:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Those are largely Bronze Age cultures , not Neolithic ones.
    Jiroft has more of its limes further West. Helmand is more complicated it starts off with Merhgarh in its very early stages but becomes part of the Jiroft culture for the rest of its existence, genetically in later stages it would be an Amalgam of Turan like and proto IVC/Merhgarh ancestry. PPN Merhgarh is far more ancient than Jiroft and Helmand cultures, easily 3.5-4.0 millennia apart.

     
    Code:
    Target: IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1:I11478
    Distance: 1.8845% / 0.01884477
    59.8	TKM_Geoksyur_En
    40.2	IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_8726
    The pottery styles are also quite similar interestingly, ibexes appear on Bronze Age pottery in Baluchistan and in Shahr-e-Sukteh.
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 07-01-2020 at 07:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akash View Post
    Looking at this map, Its seems to me in ancient times when no boundaries existed there was a big connection (even culturally) between Iran, Central Asia and South Asia. I think IVC folks must have been directly linked to people of Iran and Central Asia. Today that connection between South Asia with Central Asia/Iran is very little.
    There is also some trading connection with Elamite outposts which will explain the language similarities with Dravidian and Elamite. There is also extra Iran_N like elements present in farming castes from Gujarat to South. There is some extra Middle east like admix present in many isolated places all over South Asia probably from that era when the Middle east trading posts in elam had some connections with IVC and other Indian cities.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

  16. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Ironically, from the Neolithic to Eneolithic periods there is not much interaction with the vast majority of South Asia, their world was largely connected to the Eastern Iranian Agricultural Complex and to a much lesser degree with Sarazm related people in Central Asia. The world east of the Indus was alien to them, akin to how European colonists viewed the American Wild West. I would say post 4200 BC is when you see a dramatic movement into the Indus and where there were far more ASI HGs living and cultures become far more localized. That also coincides within the timeframe of when the major mixing occurred beyond the AASI accrued in Balochistan and explains why IVC populations are so heterogeneous. I would still say post Merhgarh cultures like Nal/Kulli in Balochistan maintained strong links to Jiroft and acted as links to major towns on the Indus.
    I guess east of Indus is where majority of ASI lived and since ASI and Iranian N were polar opposite in everything, it must have been a completly different world for them at that point. I actually wonder how did the first mixing happened

    Also east of the Indus is where more tropical weather and jungles were at that point

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