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  1. #1
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    Update on my fathers ancestry

    1C32479C-E779-49C1-A657-8C564F36961F.jpeg 993AB8FE-88E0-4476-B630-8A9E13859750.jpeg

    I’m beginning to doubt much Norman ancestry on my fathers side. I wouldn’t think he’d show this much affinity to the British & Irish if he was of significant Norman ancestry. Any thoughts?
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  2. #2
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    After 10 centuries of assimilation there is no way that you detect some proper Norman ancestry from your British side. Most of their descendants are today autosomally indistinguishable from others British people. No calculator would tell you this accurately or are you talking about some Norman ancestry from Normandy through your French Canadian side? On top of this, these normans that invaded England were already close to British people, so better searching for a needle in a haystack.
    Last edited by jstephan; 06-29-2020 at 02:02 AM.

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  4. #3
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    ^^^
    To put it in reverse; even modern people from Normandy are going to be for the most part (as a conglomerate probably even from ancient to modern times) almost indistinguishable from the rest of the population of Northwestern/Western Europe.

    Modern Europeans are not distributed into discreet groups. Even early colonial Americans aren’t untouched by this.

    You would be better off tracing your documented Norman lineage to a the specific ancestor(s) and then trying to find yDNA or mtDNA from a direct descendant(s) of those prospective people. And then, if you were one of the lucky few (if any?) you might be able to connect to a proven “Norman” line via DNA or most likely just paper trail.
    “Nought may endure but mutability” —Percy Bysshe Shelley

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    Quote Originally Posted by jstephan View Post
    After 10 centuries of assimilation there is no way that you detect some proper Norman ancestry from your British side. Most of their descendants are today autosomally indistinguishable from others British people. No calculator would tell you this accurately or are you talking about some Norman ancestry from Normandy through your French Canadian side? On top of this, these normans that invaded England were already close to British people, so better searching for a needle in a haystack.
    Thank you (also thanks for the French genetic information).

    I am awaiting Global25 store to open back up, I found a tool on Vahaduo that measures K13. This is my father:

    Target: Tim
    Distance: 1.1859% / 1.18590002

    49.4
    West_Scottish

    34.8
    Southeast_English

    5.8
    Spanish_Murcia

    4.4
    Italian_Jewish

    2.8
    French_Basque

    2.2
    Southwest_English

    0.4
    She

    0.2
    Karitiana

    I did it using K13 Ancient as well:

    Target: Tim
    Distance: 0.0687% / 0.06865080

    14.6
    France_IA_PEY53

    9.2
    grt035_grt035_Sigtuna_10012_century

    7.8
    vik_grt035_Sweden_Viking.SG_996_ybp

    6.8
    urm035_Sigtuna_M_BCDE_h2a1c_

    6.2
    SZ38_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp

    4.4
    I3874_Beaker_South_France_I3874_F_T2b3_

    4.4
    I5521_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4250_ybp

    3.8
    Alh1_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1500_ybp

    3.6
    France_IA_ERS88

    3.6
    France_IA_BFM265

    2.8
    France_BA_OBE3626-1

    2.8
    84001_Sigtuna_10_12_century_

    2.6
    R1286_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy

    2.2
    France_BA_PIR3116B

    2.2
    I12516_iberia_

    1.8
    Crusader_SI40_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem_

    1.6
    I0769_England_Saxon.SG_1455_ybp

    1.6
    RISE00_Corded_Estonia_RISE00_Corded_Estonia_

    1.4
    I3759_Celtiberian_I3759_Celtiberian_m_

    1.4
    I5376_England_Bell_Beaker_4250_ybp

    1.2
    Pericues3_T784105_

    1.0
    I4124_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4284_ybp

    1.0
    France_BA_BIS130

    1.0
    I0461_Iberia_Bell_Beaker_4278_ybp

    1.0
    I4945_Czech_Bell_Beaker_4168_ybp

    0.8
    Alh3a_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1506_ybp

    0.8
    I2478_Beaker_North_Italy_I2478_

    0.6
    I1369_Vanuatu_2900BP_all_2885_ybp

    0.6
    R31_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity

    0.6
    Sidon_BA_ERS1790729_

    0.6
    I0115_Germany_Unetice_EBA_3807_ybp

    0.4
    R1016_Lazio_Rome_Iron_Age_Latini

    0.4
    I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp

    0.4
    NO3423_England_Saxon.SG_1170_ybp

    0.4
    Saxtorp5164_Sweden_3945_3647y_old_

    0.4
    R113_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial

    0.4
    I1546_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4225_ybp

    0.4
    RISE374_Hungary_Maros.SG_3693_ybp

    0.4
    I3594_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp

    0.4
    CL92_longobard_north_italy

    0.4
    scy303_scythian_Moldova_380_203bce_

    0.2
    SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp

    0.2
    R118_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity

    0.2
    I4070_Netherlands_BA_3714_ybp

    0.2
    STR300b_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1430_ybp

    0.2
    I2433_Poland_Globular_Amphora_4950_ybp

    0.2
    I2425_Bulgaria_Late_C_6515_ybp

    0.2
    I2158_Late_Upper_Paleolithic_Sicilian_hunter_gathe rer_

    0.2
    I2026_Germany_LBK_EN_7125_ybp

    0.2
    France_IA_NOR3-15

    0.2
    Atacama_

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  8. #5
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    Pleasure Thomas, I went through the exact same questioning as you little time ago, and spent a large amount of time on this great forum to learn more about it, so if I can make you save time with my little knowledge... You are at the right place if you want to learn more about your ancestry, no doubt !

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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    1C32479C-E779-49C1-A657-8C564F36961F.jpeg 993AB8FE-88E0-4476-B630-8A9E13859750.jpeg

    I’m beginning to doubt much Norman ancestry on my fathers side. I wouldn’t think he’d show this much affinity to the British & Irish if he was of significant Norman ancestry. Any thoughts?
    My initial thought is that unfortunately you won't be able to tell Thomas. And you've already been wisely advised multiple times on the multiple personal ancestry threads that you've started that these population groups are all very similar. A new question doesn't necessitate a new thread if the broader subject is the same. Plus, take the time to explore the forum for a while. You'll find that most of your questions have already been answered on old threads, and you'll enjoy the learning process as well. There's a wealth of useful information here. Don't be in a hurry.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,100 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    My initial thought is that unfortunately you won't be able to tell Thomas. And you've already been wisely advised multiple times on the multiple personal ancestry threads that you've started that these population groups are all very similar. A new question doesn't necessitate a new thread if the broader subject is the same. Plus, take the time to explore the forum for a while. You'll find that most of your questions have already been answered on old threads, and you'll enjoy the learning process as well. There's a wealth of useful information here. Don't be in a hurry.
    Thanks for this man. I wanted to figure out ancient ancestry, but I know that's going to be hard because like you said my ancestral populations are very close. I think I'll just stick to personal genealogy, although most ancestors I can't trace back before 1500.

    I was under the assumption that you could figure out how much of your genome was, let's say, Irish or English, but know I know that's pretty much impossible to figure out.

    Another big reason I joined was because I wanted to figure out my father's side. He comes up as mostly British & Irish on all DNA tests, but I wanted to know if that was actually English because in my father's tree I would say about 1/4-1/2 of the last names are Norman French plus like I said most of the tree it's basically a mystery because I can't trace back 500 years. I wanted to know if I could figure out if he was genetically mostly English or Norman French, but know it's impossible to detect.

    Anyways, thank you and jstephan for your responses, helped me a lot!
    Last edited by Thomas Spence; 06-30-2020 at 01:29 AM.

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  14. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    Thanks for this man. I wanted to figure out ancient ancestry, but I know that's going to be hard because like you said my ancestral populations are very close. I think I'll just stick to personal genealogy, although most ancestors I can't trace back before 1500.

    I was under the assumption that you could figure out how much of your genome was, let's say, Irish or English, but know I know that's pretty much impossible to figure out.

    Another big reason I joined was because I wanted to figure out my father's side. He comes up as mostly British & Irish on all DNA tests, but I wanted to know if that was actually English because in my father's tree I would say about 1/4-1/2 of the last names are Norman French plus like I said most of the tree it's basically a mystery because I can't trace back 500 years. I wanted to know if I could figure out if he was genetically mostly English or Norman French, but know it's impossible to detect.

    Anyways, thank you and jstephan for your responses, helped me a lot!
    The reason why it's today possible to detect some specific populations is because these populations have been isolated for a sufficient amount of time to form their own genetic pattern. But it's still not that simple, take for example French people, most calculators are still struggling to detect French ancestry, because French people share a large amounts of alleles with all their neighbors countries, so most of them end up with extra ancestry such as British, German, Spanish, Italian, Belgium on most calculators, because the French cluster overlap with many countries. For mixed people it's even more complicated, for example a half British / half Spanish person will most often be given the false information that his ancestry is French, a half Italian / half Polish person that his ancestry is from the Balkan, just because France shares a large amount of ancient ancestry with Spain and Britain, and the Balkan with Slavs and people that were there before the arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans.
    Last edited by jstephan; 06-30-2020 at 01:15 PM.

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  16. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstephan View Post
    The reason why it's today possible to detect some specific populations is because these populations have been isolated for a sufficient amount of time to form their own genetic pattern. But it's still not that simple, take for example French people, most calculators are still struggling to detect French ancestry, because French people share a large amounts of alleles with all their neighbors countries, so most of them end up with extra ancestry such as British, German, Spanish, Italian, Belgium on most calculators, because the French cluster overlap with many countries. For mixed people it's even more complicated, for example a half British / half Spanish person will most often be given the false information that his ancestry is French, a half Italian / half Polish person that his ancestry is from the Balkan, just because France shares a large amount of ancient ancestry with Spain and Britain, and the Balkan with Slavs and people that were there before the arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans.
    Thanks for the info. Before I get Global 25, is it a calculator like commercial testing that gives you an estimate on how (insert ethnicity here) you are or is it something else?

  17. #10
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    On second thought, because I can't really trace my ancestry far back, I think I'll just stick to some other hobbies rather than genetics.

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