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Thread: E-V13 in Greece and the Balkans

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    E-V13 in Greece and the Balkans

    Is the prevalence of E-V13 in the southeastern Europe due to ENF or a more recent North African admixture? As far as I know ENF were predominately G2a or J2. It doesn’t look like most Greeks or Balkans have a considerable amount of North African admixture though. Much higher in parts of western Spain where E is not as common. Maybe it stems from an older source?

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    It’s neither. E-V13 came from basal E-M78. The oldest E-M78 samples are found in Mesolithic North Africa. So far no samples of E-M78 were found in ancient levant or Anatolia. So it can’t be EEF. It can’t come from anywhere in recent times either because it’s found in Europe at ~8,000 years old. Most likely it came from Mesolithic Capsian culture migration to Southern Europe.

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    Thank you. I was unaware of the presence in Europe during the mesolithic, but I figured an older source was probable. I knew hg E was present at low levels in some EEF and mistakenly thought it was brought with them. Probably just came from mixing with mesolithic peoples of southeastern Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by SonoftheSea View Post
    Thank you. I was unaware of the presence in Europe during the mesolithic, but I figured an older source was probable. I knew hg E was present at low levels in some EEF and mistakenly thought it was brought with them. Probably just came from mixing with mesolithic peoples of southeastern Europe
    There are no E samples from Mesolithic period Europe so far.

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    Apologies, I misread. So it seems it probably entered Europe around the same time as the farmers but from a different migration

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scythoslav View Post
    It’s neither. E-V13 came from basal E-M78. The oldest E-M78 samples are found in Mesolithic North Africa. So far no samples of E-M78 were found in ancient levant or Anatolia. So it can’t be EEF. It can’t come from anywhere in recent times either because it’s found in Europe at ~8,000 years old. Most likely it came from Mesolithic Capsian culture migration to Southern Europe.
    It should be mentioned that E-V13 didn't diverge from basal M78*, but rather it branched off of M78>Z1919>L618. E-L618 has been found in two Neolithic samples from Europe; I3948 from the Dalmatian coast of Croatia and belonging to the Cardium Pottery culture, and sample I1900 from the Neolithic Lengyel culture of Hungary. A couple of M78+ samples from eastern France and western Germany, belonging to the Neolithic Michelsberg culture, have also been discovered and these may in fact also be L618+.

    Judging by aDNA, it does seem that L618 may have entered Europe earlier on from North Africa, however I think we still need more aDNA from the southern Levant or Anatolia to be completely sure. It should also be noted that we have yet to find E among Mesolithic Europeans.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post

    Judging by aDNA, it does seem that L618 may have entered Europe earlier on from North Africa, however I think we still need more aDNA from the southern Levant or Anatolia to be completely sure. It should also be noted that we have yet to find E among Mesolithic Europeans.
    Which aDNA do you think suggests L618 came from North Africa before EEF? The recent paper on Neolothic shows Cardium came from east (older sites). Do you think it is pre cardium?



    From:

    "Climate shaped how Neolithic farmers and European hunter-gatherers interacted after a major slowdown from 6,100 BCE to 4,500 BCE"

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-0897-7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Judging by aDNA, it does seem that L618 may have entered Europe earlier on from North Africa, however I think we still need more aDNA from the southern Levant or Anatolia to be completely sure. It should also be noted that we have yet to find E among Mesolithic Europeans.
    Except there never was an archaeologically attested migration from North Africa directly into Europe when the E samples across Europe show up.
    Furthermore, there isn't any E samples found in Mesolithic Europe either but they show up in Neolithic Europe exactly at the time of the advance of the Anatolian Farmers or more specifically the Ceramic Anatolian Farmers.
    The first Aceramic Anatolian Farmers from Boncuklu were shown as per the paper to be derived in the greatest part from the Anatolian HG and to a small part from the CHG and Iran_N.
    The Ceramic Anatolian Farmers on the other hand were modeled as a two way mixture between these Aceramic Anatolian Farmers and PPN Levant. Exactly in these Ceramic AF aka Barcin we find an E-M35 sample(Bar11).
    Not to mention that there isn't any African dna whatsoever detected either in Mesolithic or the Neolithic samples of Europe but only shows up as a very small and distant signal in the Neolithic samples and it probably comes from the PPN Levant component in the Anatolian Farmers. These PPN Levantines on the other hand can be modeled as a two way mix between Natufians and Anatolian HG. And it's no surprise that in PPN culture in Jordan we find a large rate of E samples among them one which is derived for SNP's on E-M78 level.

    You see, every level of the process(archaeologically and aDNA) of entering into Europe with the ENF is covered for E-L618, from the Natufians to PPN Levant to Ceramic AF and finally EEF.

    So, what is the chance for a direct entry from North Africa into Europe in a situation where we haven't detected African autosomal dna(but there is a large incidence of E samples exactly showing up in the Neolithic) in any significant amount in Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe or there isn't any archaeologically attested migration but hypothetically these North Africans somehow mysteriously managed to infiltrate Europe and even to be direct ancestors of E-V13 rather than the Farmers coming from Levant and Anatolia??

    I say it's very low, almost zero and it will be forgotten ones we have more high resolution samples from PPN Levant.
    Last edited by Aspar; 07-13-2020 at 11:42 PM. Reason: Correcting

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    It is most likely via Middle East. There is no L618 yet found in Spain or Sicily <= the most hypothetical routes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Except there never was an archaeologically attested migration from North Africa directly into Europe when the E samples across Europe show up.
    Furthermore, there isn't any E samples found in Mesolithic Europe either but they show up in Neolithic Europe exactly at the time of the advance of the Anatolian Farmers or more specifically the Ceramic Anatolian Farmers.
    The first Aceramic Anatolian Farmers from Boncuklu were shown as per the paper to be derived in the greatest part from the Anatolian HG and to a small part from the CHG and Iran_N.
    The Ceramic Anatolian Farmers on the other hand were modeled as a two way mixture between these Aceramic Anatolian Farmers and PPN Levant. Exactly in these Ceramic AF aka Barcin we find an E-M35 sample(Bar11).
    Not to mention that there isn't any African dna whatsoever detected either in Mesolithic or the Neolithic samples of Europe but only shows up as a very small and distant signal in the Neolithic samples and it probably comes from the PPN Levant component in the Anatolian Farmers. These PPN Levantines on the other hand can be modeled as a two way mix between Natufians and Anatolian HG. And it's no surprise that in PPN culture in Jordan we find a large rate of E samples among them one which is derived for SNP's on E-M78 level.

    You see, every level of the process(archaeologically and aDNA) of entering into Europe with the ENF is covered for E-L618, from the Natufians to PPN Levant to Ceramic AF and finally EEF.

    So, what is the chance for a direct entry from North Africa into Europe in a situation where we haven't detected African autosomal dna(but there is a large incidence of E samples exactly showing up in the Neolithic) in any significant amount in Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe or there isn't any archaeologically attested migration but hypothetically these North Africans somehow mysteriously managed to infiltrate Europe and even to be direct ancestors of E-V13 rather than the Farmers coming from Levant and Anatolia??

    I say it's very low, almost zero and it will be forgotten ones we have more high resolution samples from PPN Levant.

    Every process is covered for entering with ENF? Yet not a single reliable sample of E-M78 was ever found in ancient Anatolia or levant. LOL

    The majority of Ceramic Anatolian farmers were G. The Levantine E that they brought into Europe was downstream E-Z827
    and a sample of that was found among cucuteni culture in Europe. That E-M35 sample in Anatolia if tested downstream would also be E-Z827. Like I said in my other posts the only way to prove that E-V13 came from ENF is to find that it was actually common in Ancient Anatolia or Levant. You can’t tell me it came from somewhere that it is completely non-existent in.

    Until then the science on this is not settled so don’t make ridiculous claims like “every process is covered...”

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