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Thread: Who do modern-day Dutch, Frisian, and Flemish people descend from?

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    Who do modern-day Dutch, Frisian, and Flemish people descend from?

    Do modern-day Dutch, Frisian, north German, and Flemish people descend from Germanic tribes who settled the area starting in 850 BC or do they descend from the previous Bronze Age population?

    On second thought, the Nordic Bronze Age mainly encompassed modern-day Scandinavia and they expanded into Germany and the Netherlands in the Iron Age. Did they replace the previous population and did Germanic tribes from that area such as the Franks, Frisii, Angles, Saxons, etc. descend from the Nordic Bronze Age population or the
    previous population?
    Last edited by Thomas Spence; 06-25-2020 at 10:55 PM.

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    Finn is the right person to answer your question.If you ask me i would say that all of them have both Bell Beaker/Celtic and Germanic/Scandinavian like admixtures thought in different amounts.North Dutch-Frisians are definitely more Germanic while South Dutch are more BB-Celtic.North Germans are also heavily Germanic but in some way more southern than Scandinavians(maybe BB-Celtic influences?).And Flemish people if i am not mistaken plot similar to Dutch/Belgians/West Germans/North French.Anyways,Finn will give you a better answer that's for sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    Do modern-day Dutch, Frisian, north German, and Flemish people descend from Germanic tribes who settled the area starting in 850 BC or do they descend from the previous Bronze Age population?

    On second thought, the Nordic Bronze Age mainly encompassed modern-day Scandinavia and they expanded into Germany and the Netherlands in the Iron Age. Did they replace the previous population and did Germanic tribes from that area such as the Franks, Frisii, Angles, Saxons, etc. descend from the Nordic Bronze Age population or the
    previous population?
    People from the Low Countries almost certainly descend from a mixture of the local Bronze Age population and Germanic migrants from Scandinavia. What mixture exactly is yet to be determined based on aDNA sampling from the region, although some people here may be able to give you their best guess.

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    Why do they have to descend from either bronze age beakers OR Germanic tribes, it's certainly both. Some of the individual Dutch samples on G25 are Scandanavian like genetically, but most of them are not. Flemish seem more south shifted, same with southern Dutch; they must have something else in the mix.
    Last edited by Ayetooey; 06-26-2020 at 06:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    Do modern-day Dutch, Frisian, north German, and Flemish people descend from Germanic tribes who settled the area starting in 850 BC or do they descend from the previous Bronze Age population?
    For Frisia, it's generally assumed it was mostly depopulated in the late Roman period. Newcomers were mainly Anglo-Saxons from the north, very comparable to the ones that also moved to England. They also migrated to coastal areas more to the south in current Holland and Flanders. Further south Germanic tribes would have arrived later than 850BC but before the Roman period. From sources it seems the population here had both Germanic and Celtic aspects.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    On second thought, the Nordic Bronze Age mainly encompassed modern-day Scandinavia and they expanded into Germany and the Netherlands in the Iron Age. Did they replace the previous population and did Germanic tribes from that area such as the Franks, Frisii, Angles, Saxons, etc. descend from the Nordic Bronze Age population or the previous population?
    The Germanic tribes around and above the big rivers were most likely a mix between older inhabitants and Germanic newcomers. South of the big rivers Germanic influences before and during the Roman age were rarer (but existant). At the end of the Roman age there were movements again, and local population south of the big rivers (which was a mix between Bronze age inhabitants, later Celtic influences, a bit of Germanic and a lot of others brought by Romans) was mixed with the 'Germanic' newcomers who were themselves already a mix of Germanic and local heritage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    South of the big rivers Germanic influences before and during the Roman age were rarer (but existant). At the end of the Roman age there were movements again, and local population south of the big rivers (which was a mix between Bronze age inhabitants, later Celtic influences, a bit of Germanic and a lot of others brought by Romans) was mixed with the 'Germanic' newcomers who were themselves already a mix of Germanic and local heritage.
    Archaeological evidence points to a total depopulation of Batavian and southern area's (larger Kempen) farmer hamlets. There is not one archaeological record of continuity past 300. Ancient writers mention chaos with Franks invading and Romans both defeating and allying with the Franks, eventually letting them settle as Foederati. There is a Panegry that mentions resettling Frisians. Pottery of Frisian style has been found in Flanders.

    Zosimus - who isn't considered the most reliable source - wrote that a Charietto held nightly raids to kill Franks. Charietto is itself Germanic name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayetooey View Post
    Why do they have to descend from either bronze age beakers OR Germanic tribes, it's certainly both. Some of the individual Dutch samples on G25 are Scandanavian like genetically, but most of them are not. Flemish seem more south shifted, same with southern Dutch; they must have something else in the mix.
    I am still wondering what is that something else, if it came through the Romans or if it was there before. But definitely, South Dutch and West Germans have that something else that push them further south. The Champagne and Alsace Iron age samples from the French paper could have provided an answer to that question, but their low coverage makes any interpretation difficult to do.
    Last edited by jstephan; 06-26-2020 at 02:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jstephan View Post
    I am still wondering what is that something else, if it came through the Romans or if it was there before. But definitely, South Dutch and West Germans have that something else that push them further south. The Champagne and Alsace Iron age samples from the French paper could have provided an answer to that question, but their low coverage makes any interpretation difficult to do.
    We cannot rule out post-migration era movements as well, not everything has to be explained by Romans and German(ic)s
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    Also it seems like during the Iron age, on the territory of current day Alsace, there were some individuals that were very close to modern Southern Europeans, I know these samples can't be taken seriously but still. So, if these individuals were there, why not further north.

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    Last edited by jstephan; 06-26-2020 at 07:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Spence View Post
    Do modern-day Dutch, Frisian, north German, and Flemish people descend from Germanic tribes who settled the area starting in 850 BC or do they descend from the previous Bronze Age population?

    On second thought, the Nordic Bronze Age mainly encompassed modern-day Scandinavia and they expanded into Germany and the Netherlands in the Iron Age. Did they replace the previous population and did Germanic tribes from that area such as the Franks, Frisii, Angles, Saxons, etc. descend from the Nordic Bronze Age population or the
    previous population?
    North of the Rhine, is generally a mixture of pre-migration, indeed LNBA population, kind of BB continuation (with a especially in Drenthe TRB touch), combined with incoming 'Anglo-Saxons' and 'Jutes'. The most western part of Friesland was in the fourth century (almost) depopulated so the incoming Anglo-Saxon stream has had the biggest impact here.

    South of the Rhine a combination of 'Belgae-like' ? LNBA population, the Roman impact (the Rhine was the Limes) and Frankish or Rhine-Weser Germanic influx.

    Afterwards some circulation too of course the North somewhat more oriented on the Hanseatic Room, the South more to Central-West Europa.

    Of course this is gross. The reality is more diversified.

    For example I'm autosomal very North European, but my Y-DNA has IMO a relationship to "Egyptian-Roman" military.....
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....th-West-Europe

    So we descend from lots of people
    Last edited by Finn; 06-26-2020 at 05:23 PM.

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