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Thread: Out of America (from Africa) must now be taken seriously

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liudmila Timofeeva View Post
    I know the phylogenetic trees for uniparental markers. What your wrote makes no sense for another simple reason: if all lineages are African by the way you define them, then the whole world is Africa which is not the case.

    Africans carry a smaller subset of pan-human mutations than any other continental population. They just have more unique African mutations and combinations of mutations that no other continental population has. This may have something to do with mutation rate being higher in Africa. Those African-specific lineages are precisely the ones that are found in the descendants of African slaves because there was a migration out of West Africa after 1492. But those lineages are absent from any Upper Paleolithic/Late Pleistocene DNA sample outside of Africa. This is because there was no migration out of Africa prior to 1492.
    There is a discussion of the out-of-Africa model for the Y chromosome and also mutation rates in this fairly recent paper:
    A Rare Deep-Rooting D0 African Y-Chromosomal Haplogroup and Its Implications for the Expansion of Modern Humans Out of Africa
    Marc Haber, Abigail L. Jones, Bruce A. Connell, Asan, Elena Arciero, Huanming Yang, Mark G. Thomas, Yali Xue and Chris Tyler-Smith
    GENETICS August 1, 2019 vol. 212 no. 4 1421-1428

    Papers that mention the possibility of a higher mutation rate in Africa:
    Mutation Rate and Excess African Heterozygosity
    JOHN H. RELETHFORD
    Here, I examine another possible factor: that excess African heterozygosity is in part a function of mutation rate.

    Decomposing the admixture statistic, D, suggests a negligible contribution due to archaic introgression into humans
    William Amos
    Together, these observations show that D does not capture a signal due to introgression but instead they support an alternative model in which a higher mutation rate in Africa drives increased divergence from the ancestral state.

    But there could easily be others that I missed.
    Last edited by pmokeefe; 04-16-2021 at 07:49 PM.
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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by RP48 View Post
    No knowledge of linguistics but I think that population of a whole continent could easily lead to isolated populations. It also sounds like you’re assuming that most of the new people moving into the Americas came from a common founder population and around the same time.
    I accounted for a few post-LGM migrations, Eskimo-Aleut and Na Dene specifically. But yes *according to geneticists* the overwhelming majority of Amerind DNA (outside of Alaskan/Canada tribes with lots of neo-Siberian ancestry) comes from the early, original migration across the Bering Straight. Not to mention-- it's not as if Northern North America has the most linguistic diversity. In fact Mexico and S America have more linguistic diversity per square mile than Canada/Alaska.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liudmila Timofeeva View Post
    I know the phylogenetic trees for uniparental markers. What your wrote makes no sense for another simple reason: if all lineages are African by the way you define them, then the whole world is Africa which is not the case.

    Africans carry a smaller subset of pan-human mutations than any other continental population. They just have more unique African mutations and combinations of mutations that no other continental population has. This may have something to do with mutation rate being higher in Africa. Those African-specific lineages are precisely the ones that are found in the descendants of African slaves because there was a migration out of West Africa after 1492. But those lineages are absent from any Upper Paleolithic/Late Pleistocene DNA sample outside of Africa. This is because there was no migration out of Africa prior to 1492.
    The whole world IS AFRICAN. Because the whole world is mainly of Anatomically Modern Human stock. As far as modern Humans : You are in essence looking at an ADMIXTURE run of K=1 as there is only ONE anatomically Modern Human species. Again the alternative would be Eurasians mainly as Neandertal and Denisovan ancestry with very minor AMH admixture. This is not what we see.

    Futhemore If you add primates and archaic into Admixure I'm going to PRESUME we Humans will all be all of the same component. I presume because I don't know if this has been done. Denisovan and Neanderthal mtdna is not on our human tree though.

    You should go through ancient dna studies and see that African Lineages.....some of the same ones that were taken to the America's have been found in Ancient remains outside the continent. Some of these skeletons go back over 10 thousand years.

    A quick search...here is an example. 3500 year old remains from Southern Europe have an L2a1 lineage. L2a1 is the most widespread lineage on the African Continent as well as the most widespread mtdna lineage in African Americans.

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  7. #44
    The whole world is not African. It's a rather odd thing to say. There are uniparental markers that shared between all continents, then there are markers that are shared by all non-African continents and by some Africans, then there are markers that are African-specific, Asia-specific, etc. African-specific markers are not found in UP/late Pleistocene remains along any of the putative out-of-Africa routes. Your example of L2a1 fits well with what I'm saying: there was some gene flow between Africa and southern Europe around 3500 years ago. These are roughly geographically contiguous territories. This sets an expectation for 40,000 years ago. And at 40,000 years ago we don't see a population with such a link to Africa. What we see is a population with a link to America and East Asia. And the so-called ANE signal (also with a link to America) is found in a large number of aDNAs in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liudmila Timofeeva View Post
    The whole world is not African. It's a rather odd thing to say. There are uniparental markers that shared between all continents, then there are markers that are shared by all non-African continents and by some Africans, then there are markers that are African-specific, Asia-specific, etc. African-specific markers are not found in UP/late Pleistocene remains along any of the putative out-of-Africa routes. Your example of L2a1 fits well with what I'm saying: there was some gene flow between Africa and southern Europe around 3500 years ago. These are roughly geographically contiguous territories. This sets an expectation for 40,000 years ago. And at 40,000 years ago we don't see a population with such a link to Africa. What we see is a population with a link to America and East Asia. And the so-called ANE signal (also with a link to America) is found in a large number of aDNAs in Europe.
    ANE postdates the proposed date of OOA by quite a considerable time, not an argument.

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  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liudmila Timofeeva View Post
    The whole world is not African. It's a rather odd thing to say. There are uniparental markers that shared between all continents, then there are markers that are shared by all non-African continents and by some Africans, then there are markers that are African-specific, Asia-specific, etc. African-specific markers are not found in UP/late Pleistocene remains along any of the putative out-of-Africa routes. Your example of L2a1 fits well with what I'm saying: there was some gene flow between Africa and southern Europe around 3500 years ago. These are roughly geographically contiguous territories. This sets an expectation for 40,000 years ago. And at 40,000 years ago we don't see a population with such a link to Africa. What we see is a population with a link to America and East Asia. And the so-called ANE signal (also with a link to America) is found in a large number of aDNAs in Europe.

    In comparison to any other homind, or any extra terrestrial biological entity......we are all Africans. Or "Earthlings". In the Middle Earth narrative of Tolkien, we are "Man" as opposed to the other races of Orcs, Elves, Trolls, Dwarves, Hobbits etc. Understand now?

    At this point...... how do you NOT comprehend that all those non African Markers descend from African markers on the tree? If we run this hypothesis in reverse shouldnt we expect to see Modern Native American DNA in Africans.

    The population of domesticated dogs does NOT have to be constantly replenished and infused with Wolf stock to understand the fact that domesticated dogs descend from Wolves. You argument is kinda silly along the "if we come from apes monkey why do we still have apes and monkeys" reasoning.

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  12. #47
    What you are actually claiming is not that we are all (wo)men but that we are all Orcs and that Elves, Trolls, etc. are just different kinds of Orcs. This does not sound right. In reality Africans have fewer pan-human uniparental alleles than other continental populations. So the world is divided into more generic humans, with Amerindians being the most generic or underived, and more specific humans, with Africans being most divergent from the rest. There were 2 models of dispersal from the beginning: one that assumes that the most frequent alleles are the oldest, and the other one that assumed that the more divergent a population is the older it is. OOAfrica is built on a latter premise. But aDNA has so far falsified it. So we should look closely into the other one.

    "If we run this hypothesis in reverse shouldnt we expect to see Modern Native American DNA in Africans." We do have Amerindian-related ancestry showing up very widely across the globe (Asia, Europe, Australasia, North Africa) and very deeply in aDNA samples (24,000, 43,000). We also do see that demographically Amerindians are the closest to Neandertals (highest Fst among modern humans and the closest to Neandertals at that). Human aDNA again showed that ancient samples tend to be less diverse than modern ones (again falsifying serial bottleneck out of Africa).
    Last edited by Liudmila Timofeeva; 04-18-2021 at 01:37 PM.

  13. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liudmila Timofeeva View Post
    What you are actually claiming is not that we are all (wo)men but that we are all Orcs and that Elves, Trolls, etc. are just different kinds of Orcs.
    No. This is an incorrect analogy. Because Cave Trolls are NOT breeding with Hobbits and Humans. There is only ONE anatomically Modern Human SPECIES. What you view as human races are NOT speciated.

    Before you criticize the Out of Africa migration you must first understand the African Origin of our species, and you have difficulties understanding this.

    Have you....or anyone in your family preformed a genetic test? If so, what are the results?

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    Everyone in the Y paragroup CT also carries A-P305. You can verify this for yourself like I just have, just download some male BAM files if you don't have any (1000 Genomes Project etc). The top spot for A-P305 is amongst the Pygmies of Cameroon. All the non-CT samples are African. So, for example in the UK the vast majority of people are hg R or hg I and they both derive from hg A.

    Here is an index to the 1000 Genomes project listing population group and gender of each sample.

    ftp://ftp.1000genomes.ebi.ac.uk/vol1...mple_info.xlsx

    Or go to the YFull tree which shows loads of scientific samples in each major branch of the tree so you can download them yourself.

    I recommend you go and have a look at the data. If you want to post a rival tree with samples to back it up, good luck. Until you have that, there's no point in posting further.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...NA_haplogroups
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liudmila Timofeeva View Post
    What you are actually claiming is not that we are all (wo)men but that we are all Orcs and that Elves, Trolls, etc. are just different kinds of Orcs. This does not sound right. In reality Africans have fewer pan-human uniparental alleles than other continental populations. So the world is divided into more generic humans, with Amerindians being the most generic or underived, and more specific humans, with Africans being most divergent from the rest. There were 2 models of dispersal from the beginning: one that assumes that the most frequent alleles are the oldest, and the other one that assumed that the more divergent a population is the older it is. OOAfrica is built on a latter premise. But aDNA has so far falsified it. So we should look closely into the other one.
    ...
    Do you happen to have citations for those two models of dispersal and - even better - compares the two? That way we know exactly which models you have in mind, and why you prefer one over the other, so we are not just talking past each other somehow.
    Last edited by pmokeefe; 04-18-2021 at 03:34 PM.
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