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Thread: Out of America (from Africa) must now be taken seriously

  1. #51
    The two models were proposed in the very first mtDNA paper: Johnson MJ, Wallace DC, Ferris SD, Rattazzi MC, Cavalli-Sforza LL (1983) Radiation of human mitochondria DNA types analyzed by restriction endonuclease cleavage patterns. J Mol Evol 19:255–271.

    They identified 2 possible roots: 1 in east Asia/America (based on the frequencies of the most common morph 1) and the other one in Africa (based on morph diversity). They called early haplotypes "morphs" at that time. Model 2 took hold. Model 1 got ignored in later publications. Unduly ignored.

    In that early paper Amerindian data was slightly compromised. But in a couple of years it was reconfirmed that Amerindians are 100% morph 1 and Asians are 75% morph 1.

  2. #52
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    @beyoku and MacUalraig:

    If you look at my OP, I have never contested that early humans originated in Africa. The Omo, Jebel Irhoud, Florisbad humans would have all likely carried y-haplogroup A (or some dead para-group related to A) and basal mtdna lineages, and there is no difficulty in deriving the Eurasian lineages downstream of these.

    Of interest in *this* thread are things like why haplogroup E-P2 is so dominant in Africa (with a coalescence time right around when the first Paleolithic Eurasian humans appear 50-40kya), or why Basal P* is only common in the Aeta tribe etc. Plz let's not derail the thread!

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  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liudmila Timofeeva View Post
    The two models were proposed in the very first mtDNA paper: Johnson MJ, Wallace DC, Ferris SD, Rattazzi MC, Cavalli-Sforza LL (1983) Radiation of human mitochondria DNA types analyzed by restriction endonuclease cleavage patterns. J Mol Evol 19:255271.

    They identified 2 possible roots: 1 in east Asia/America (based on the frequencies of the most common morph 1) and the other one in Africa (based on morph diversity). They called early haplotypes "morphs" at that time. Model 2 took hold. Model 1 got ignored in later publications. Unduly ignored.

    In that early paper Amerindian data was slightly compromised. But in a couple of years it was reconfirmed that Amerindians are 100% morph 1 and Asians are 75% morph 1.
    Not sure where in the paper you found the root "in east Asia/America". In Figure 7 of the paper, shown below, there is one root between Eurasia/America and Africa. The other root is within Africa between the Bushmen and everyone else.

    Figure 7. - 1.jpeg
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  6. #54
    @ MacUalraig. Well, we just have to test the existing trees using aDNA now. If they are correct, we would eventually find African Y-DNA lineages in UP Bulgaria. For now, we don't see them there.
    Last edited by Liudmila Timofeeva; 04-18-2021 at 06:03 PM.

  7. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liudmila Timofeeva View Post
    @ MacUalraig. Well, we just have to test the existing trees using aDNA now. If they are correct, we would eventually find African Y-DNA lineages in UP Bulgaria. For now, we don't see them there.
    Why do existing trees imply we would find African Y-DNA lineages in UP Bulgaria? Which particular African Y-DNA lineages should we expect to find in UP Bulgaria, if the existing trees are valid?
    Last edited by pmokeefe; 04-18-2021 at 06:14 PM.
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  8. #56
    @pmokeefe. It's in the paper. Look at Table 2 (frequency of types by continent) and Fig. 6 (phylogeny of types rooted in type 1). 100% of type 1 in America was confirmed in a later paper, as I said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liudmila Timofeeva View Post
    @pmokeefe. It's in the paper. Look at Table 2 (frequency of types by continent) and Fig. 6 (phylogeny of types rooted in type 1). 100% of type 1 in America was confirmed in a later paper, as I said.
    From the Johnson et al paper:
    "MTDNA type 1 is also the only one found in all the major groups studied and is the most common type of the entire sample."

    The paper itself only drew one tree with continentally based groups (Fig 7) and gave two possible roots, one between Africans and non-Africans and the other within Africa.

    Which later paper are you referring to?
    Last edited by pmokeefe; 04-18-2021 at 06:40 PM.
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  10. #58
    Yes, type 1 was the one found on all continents. The most common type, under this model, is the oldest, most stable one. Its frequencies, however, differed in a clinal fashion from America to Africa. The subsequent paper is Excoffier L., A. Langaney. “Origin and Differentiation of Human Mitochondrial DNA,” Am J Hum Genet. 1989 44 (1): 73-85.

  11. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by pmokeefe View Post
    Why do existing trees imply we would find African Y-DNA lineages in UP Bulgaria? Which particular African Y-DNA lineages should we expect to find in UP Bulgaria, if the existing trees are valid?
    We should expect to find African-specific types outside of Africa, just like we find them among the descendants of African slaves. E.g., the most divergent Y-DNA lineage A00 was found in the Mbo of Cameroon and in African Americans. That's the pattern we are waiting for and so far not seeing in Ust-Ishim, Malta, Oase, UP Bulgaria or anywhere in Eurasia for that matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liudmila Timofeeva View Post
    Yes, type 1 was the one found on all continents. The most common type, under this model, is the oldest, most stable one. Its frequencies, however, differed in a clinal fashion from America to Africa. The subsequent paper is Excoffier L., A. Langaney. “Origin and Differentiation of Human Mitochondrial DNA,” Am J Hum Genet. 1989 44 (1): 73-85.
    From the paper you cite:
    A partial phylogeny of the types found in five other populations also demonstrates that the myth of an African Eden was based on an incorrect "genealogical tree" of mtDNA types.

    However Laurent Excoffier, one of the coauthors of that 1989 paper, went on to publish another paper in 1995 which came to a different conclustion:
    Analysis of mtDNA variation in African populations reveals the most ancient of all human continent-specific haplogroups.
    Comparison of the intrapopulation sequence divergence in African and non-African populations confirms that African populations exhibit the largest extent of mtDNA variation, a result that further supports the hypothesis that Africans represent the most ancient human group and that all modern humans have a common and recent African origin. The age of the total African variation was estimated to be 101,000-133,000 years before present (YBP), while the age of haplogroup L was estimated at 98,000-130,000 YBP. These values substantially exceed the ages of all Asian- and European-specific mtDNA haplogroups.
    Last edited by pmokeefe; 04-18-2021 at 07:11 PM.
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