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Thread: West-Siberian Hunterer Gatherers and their descendants - Help me make sense of it all

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    West-Siberian Hunterer Gatherers and their descendants - Help me make sense of it all

    Hi,

    I'm trying to beter understand the range of West-Siberian Hunter gatherer-like people, connect the various dots between them, maybe discuss their potential languages or something.

    I have a bunch of questions to ask and some of this stuff is probably hidden in supplementary tables but other stuff I might need some of the wizardry you guys do to better understand it.

    1. Which are all the current archaeological cultures we can consider part of the WSHG cluster?
    • West Siberia Neolithic
    • Botai
    • Okunev
    • Steppe Maykop
    • Dali EBA Site
    • Kelteminar(?)
    • Chemurcheck (Partially) (?)

    Am I mising any obvious ones?

    2. What are the haplogroups of the West Siberia Neolithic samples that have been uncovered?

    3. WSHGs are modeled as 50% ANE, 30% EHG and 20% ENA in Narasimhan's paper. I read somewhere that Steppe Maykop, despite falling in this WSHG cluster did not have East Asian ancestry to the degree in the model above, is this correct?

    Piggybacking on this question, how does the East Asian ancestry vary among these populations.

    4. Which populations have the most WSHG ancestry today? Kets and Ngansanans? If so, is Ket a potential WSHG language? On the topic of the Ket, are their Q1a y-dna clades of the same branch we see in Okunev culture and/or the DSKC/early Xiongnu West from Jeong's paper?

    5. Dali_EBA, do you think she was more related to the Kelteminar culture, or perhaps closer to the Botai but migrated southwards along the IAMC.

    6. Botai had domesticated horses, which became feral horses in Mongolia. Okunev culture apparently had some horses at their sites and so did other cultures like the Elunin or the Qiemu'erqieke (Chemurchek). Are these horses Botai Horses or PC Steppe horses from Afanasievo?

    7. Is there any phenotypic data available on any of these groups? I read that their ANE ancestry like those of the WSH is closer to Afontova Gora than Mal'ta, this would mean blondism could be part of their genetic structure right?

    8. East of the Altai you had an influx of ANE ancestry and Q1a haplogroups after the neolithic. Is this linked to the Okunev or Okunev-like people or did it happen earlier? What about the migrations to the far East, or a potential influx into North America, bringing the Déne languages with them?

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    1) WSHG of course, also Botai, Dali_EBA, Chemurcheck I think is more Afanasievo not WSHG. No DNA from Kelteminar yet but they'll probably be quite Botai-like I'm guessing.
    1/3) Then we have a few groups that are roughly half WSHG-like and half Steppe-Eneolithic/Yamnaya-like such as Kazakhstan_Kumsay_EBA, Kazakhstan_Mereke_MBA, Steppe_Maykop, and outliers from Sintashta, Srubnaya, and Potapovka.

    2) mtdna wise such populations tend to have alot of U2, U4, R1b from their ANE side, C and Z from the East-Asian side, U5 and K1 from the WHG (as mediated by EHG) side. Y-hg is a lot of Q1a2 and minor branches of R1b.

    4) Definitely not Nganasans, they are overwhelmingly East Asian.
    Don't have any info on Kets, but G25 data shows they are very similar to Selkup, who look to have some WSHG. Of the populations I have access to, I think Mansi might have the most.

    That's about the extent of my knowledge on the topic, hope that helps somewhat
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Hi,

    I'm trying to beter understand the range of West-Siberian Hunter gatherer-like people, connect the various dots between them, maybe discuss their potential languages or something.
    ?

    5. I’d vote for Kelteminar.

    6. I’m not sure exactly which sites you’re referring to but Afanasievo almost certainly introduced PC steppe horses to Okunev. The Przhevalksi’s (Botai) horses may have been present too. I don’t know what source you are looking at.

    7. Prevalent Blondism seems to be mostly restricted to post Corded Ware populations, despite the presence of the light hair mutation in AG. I’d say it’s likely these people resembled modern Siberians and Native Americans.

    8. It is possibly linked to Okunev or Okunev related people, but the evidence is not direct, but though similar ancestry and being close in space and time.

    The Dene-Yeniseian language family hypothesis has pretty good support now. But this migration would have taken place well before the Okunevo culture. The Okunev people were probably related to the ancestors of Na Dene Native Americans though, having a likely common origin in ancient central Siberians about 10kya.

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    May I ask exactly what Srubnaya samples contain WSHG or WSHG-related admixture? I believe there is WSHG-related admixture in one of the Potapovka outliers/samples and in quite a few Sintashta outliers, but as far as I know there was none in Srubnaya or Poltavka. Also what would you say the difference is in these WSHG-like mixtures. Clearly some have no East Asian while some do, there are also varying levels of ANE and EHG. I think we could be dealing with Tyumen-related hunter gatherer groups spread all across Siberia and Central Asia, but some of these groups have varying levels of the aforementioned ancestries, but they all share a common ANE-EHG component to them. I am also not sure we can label mtDNA C as East Asian yet until we have more Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic genomes from Central/North Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    May I ask exactly what Srubnaya samples contain WSHG or WSHG-related admixture? I believe there is WSHG-related admixture in one of the Potapovka outliers/samples and in quite a few Sintashta outliers, but as far as I know there was none in Srubnaya or Poltavka. Also what would you say the difference is in these WSHG-like mixtures. Clearly some have no East Asian while some do, there are also varying levels of ANE and EHG. I think we could be dealing with Tyumen-related hunter gatherer groups spread all across Siberia and Central Asia, but some of these groups have varying levels of the aforementioned ancestries, but they all share a common ANE-EHG component to them. I am also not sure we can label mtDNA C as East Asian yet until we have more Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic genomes from Central/North Asia.
    RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA_o:I0354

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    "The indigenous populations of inner Eurasia—a huge geographic region covering the central Eurasian steppe and the northern Eurasian taiga and tundra—harbour tremendous diversity in their genes, cultures and languages. In this study, we report novel genome-wide data for 763 individuals from Armenia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Moldova, Mongolia, Russia, Tajikistan, Ukraine and Uzbekistan. We furthermore report additional damage-reduced genome-wide data of two previously published individuals from the Eneolithic Botai culture in Kazakhstan (~5,400 bp). We find that present-day inner Eurasian populations are structured into three distinct admixture clines stretching between various western and eastern Eurasian ancestries, mirroring geography. The Botai and more recent ancient genomes from Siberia show a decrease in contributions from so-called ‘ancient North Eurasian’ ancestry over time, which is detectable only in the northern-most ‘forest-tundra’ cline. The intermediate ‘steppe-forest’ cline descends from the Late Bronze Age steppe ancestries, while the ‘southern steppe’ cline further to the south shows a strong West/South Asian influence. Ancient genomes suggest a northward spread of the southern steppe cline in Central Asia during the first millennium bc. Finally, the genetic structure of Caucasus populations highlights a role of the Caucasus Mountains as a barrier to gene flow and suggests a post-Neolithic gene flow into North Caucasus populations from the steppe."

    "The northernmost grouping, which they term "forest-tundra", includes Russians, all Uralic language-speakers, which includes Hungarian, Finnish and Estonian, and Yeniseian-language speakers, of which only one remains today and is spoken in central Siberia. The middle grouping, which they term "steppe-forest", includes Turkic- and Mongolic-speaking populations from the Volga and the region around the Altai and Sayan mountains, near to where Russia, China, Mongolia and Kazakhstan meet. The southernmost grouping, "southern-steppe", includes the rest of Turkic- and Mongolic-speaking populations living further south, such as Kazakhs, Kyrgyzs and Uzbeks, as well as Indo-European-speaking Tajiks."

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-019-0878-2

    https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases ... 042619.php

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    Here's an overview of the Sintashta outliers.

    First a group of a few similar individuals (I1056, I1057, I1058). Mostly Sintashta-like, but with a pretty even split of Steppe_EBA & Siberian mixed in.
     

    Steppe_MLBA: 62.15%
    "Sintashta_KamennyiAmbar" 42.2
    "Russia_Sintashta_MLBA.SG" 19.95
    Steppe_EBA: 20.85%
    "Yamnaya_Caucasus" 14.8
    "Afanasievo.SG" 4.15
    "Yamnaya_Kazakhstan_Karagash.SG" 1.85
    "Russia_North_Caucasus_EBA" 0.05
    Siberian: 16.1%
    "Botai" 9.35
    "Kazakhstan_Kumsay_EBA" 4.2
    "West_Siberia_NHG" 2.45
    "Kazakhstan_Mereke_MBA" 0.1

    Noise
    "MotaX5" 0.9
    "distance%=0.19 / distance=0.0019"


    I1020 has a similar profile, but more Steppe_EBA
     

    Steppe_MLBA: 44.5%
    "Russia_Andronovo.SG" 37
    "Sintashta_KamennyiAmbar" 7.5
    Steppe_EBA: 36.4%
    "Russia_North_Caucasus_EBA" 22.7
    "Poltavka" 13.7
    Siberian: 18.3%
    "West_Siberia_NHG" 18.3

    Noise
    "Malawi_Hora_9000BP" 0.6
    "South_Africa_2000BP.SG" 0.2
    "distance%=0.2803 / distance=0.002803"


    I1017 fits right into the Steppe-Maykop, Kazakhstan_Kumsay_EBA, Kazakhstan_Mereke_MBA cluster.

     

    "Kazakhstan_Kumsay_EBA" 78.55
    "Steppe_Maikop" 19.7
    "Cameroon_ShumLaka_8000BP.DG" 1.3
    "South_Africa_2000BP.SG" 0.45
    "distance%=0.4211 / distance=0.004211"


    The Srubnaya outlier pretty much does also.

     

    Srubnaya_o
    "Kazakhstan_Mereke_MBA" 82.4
    "Khvalynsk" 12.05
    "West_Siberia_NHG" 4.9
    "MotaX5" 0.65
    "distance%=0.3537 / distance=0.003537"


    Now here's the weirdo: I1028: Also with the weird y-hg R1b-M478.
     

    "Khvalynsk" 50.5
    "West_Siberia_NHG" 32.8
    "Botai.SG" 16.6
    "South_Africa_2000BP.SG" 0.1
    "distance%=0.1764 / distance=0.001764"

    It absolutely implodes if Khvalynsk is removed (leaving Steppe_Piedmont, Steppe_Maykop cluster, Steppe_EBA, Steppe_MLBA all as choices). I1028 simply has too much EHG and too little East-Asian.
    Last edited by Kale; 07-07-2020 at 06:34 AM.
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    4. Okunevo had multiple cases of Q-L940 and Q-L330, and one of Q-M25, according to my notes. I don't know what subclade of Q-L330 the Kets have. Some of the DSKC, maybe most, had Q-L330, as did a number of other ancient Mongolians, but none, AFAIK, look like Q-L940.

    8. Glazkovo (Baikal EBA) are roughly contemporary to or earlier than Okunevo. Ust Ida LN (Serovo-Isakovo) are well before Glazkovo and already have the elevated ANE ancestry. Glazkovo seems to have mainly Q-YP4004, BTW.

    BZK002 from the recent Siberian paper is from Krasnoyarsk area and dates to around 2800 BC, fits well as Baikal LNBA with additional 34% AG3 or 45% Botai, has Q-L330. Okunevo fits well as 76% BZK002 + 24% Steppe EMBA. Admixture dating finds two events for Okunevo, one earlier with ANE, one later with Steppe. The earlier admixture comes out to ~3000-4000 BC. BZK002 is a good candidate for the precursor population who mixed with Afanasievo to produce Okunevo. The admixture dates for ANE with East Asian to form Baikal LNBA are likely even earlier, so probably not the same event. Anyway, definitely before Okunevo.

    Of course, there were also high ANE populations in the east way before that who could have survived and mixed with East Asians newcomers later on, for all we know.

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    A cline of WSHG to Baikal N/BA type ancestry is operative in Siberia near the Eurasian steppe in the aDNA record, but I'd be very curious to find out what people were like in more northerly areas of the Western Siberian Plain and the Central Siberian Plateau. We've got nothing from these parts of Siberia at all. I imagine they were inhabited by people with some combination of ANE and Paleosiberian ancestry, but who knows in what proportions.

    A map I made of 10kya-5kya samples for my own reference:
    https://i.imgur.com/CelrxEE.png
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    Just to throw more uncertainty into the mix - The enigmatic Seima-Turbino phenomenon needs to be considered in a broad sense (hasn't been mentioned yet, surprisingly). Some of these individuals (such as the Sintashta outliers) may be partly (or fully) derived from ST individuals (I1028?).
    ST predates Sintashta, and some metal ornaments belonging to the ST phenomenon have been located in that culture (alongside others immediately to the west of the Urals).

    A couple years back, some of us in the S. Asian section noted the persistence of an EHG-like signal in some SC Asian pops that didn't seem to be perfectly characterised by EHG (or Khvalynsk_EN). Oddly, it seemed to be best-represented by the Naxi people of S China (whose cultural narrative indicated origins deeper in the Eurasian heartland).
    That raised the hypothetical of a "Central Eurasian HG" ancestral group, which isn't inconceivable, given the apparent widespread distribution of geometric microliths across C and EC Asia and some material overlap between the two regions (f.ex. IIRC northern Afghanistan's UP microliths were of the same variant as those found in the Altai; there's no reason to presuppose islets of drifted HG's didn't exist in the region; the current absence in pre-Neolithic aDNA around the Uzbek-Kyrgyz-Tajik-Altai region does facilitate that possibility).

    That hypothetical hasn't been re-explored in light of the discovery of WSHG and the abundance in BA-onward aDNA in the Kazakh steppe.
    It may well be the case that the hypothetical "CEHG" was little more than an illusory combination of WSHG and Chokhopani (the Nepali-Tibetan ancient).
    Just an idea that might be worth considering in this discussion.
    Last edited by DMXX; 07-07-2020 at 07:33 AM. Reason: line

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