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Thread: West-Siberian Hunterer Gatherers and their descendants - Help me make sense of it all

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    Quote Originally Posted by Korotyr View Post
    I removed the Baltic ancestry with Genoplot from that sample, here's what it's like without it.

    Target: s19_0LS10_1_-BalticBA&IA
    Distance: 10.8120% / 0.10812008
    46.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    37.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o3
    16.0 kra001_scaled
    0.0 Baltic_EST_BA
    0.0 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA_o
    0.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1
    0.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o2

    Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_0LS10_1
    Distance: 0.8654% / 0.00865413
    47.2 Baltic_EST_BA
    30.2 Baltic_EST_IA
    22.6 s19_0LS10_1_-BalticBA&IA

    s19_0LS10_1_-BalticBA&IA,0.105434,-0.009292,0.116059,0.092023,-0.014883,0.021073,0.000646,0.00963,-0.042492,-0.05599,0.037421,-0.026639,0.006702,-0.094698,0.027333,0.001816,0.034159,0.009222,0.000 562,-0.010229,-0.010775,0.019467,-0.038678,-0.011635,0.005548
    Apparently this man is the son of a migrant and a local woman. If you remove the mother's contribution, it will remain approximately 66% RUS_Sintashta_MLBA & 33% kra001_scaled

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Apparently this man is the son of a migrant and a local woman. If you remove the mother's contribution, it will remain approximately 66% RUS_Sintashta_MLBA & 33% kra001_scaled
    Even if that's not strictly speaking the case, it's getting very close to Generalissimo's previous qpAdm based results, in which case Non-Baltic_BA like features of OLS_10 looked like Baikal_BA biased Mereke_MBA sample from Kazakhstan.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xUM...W1ZRQZhWa/view

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    So kra001 looks like a decent fit for the Nganasan-like component in Uralic peoples?

    The sample is burial 1 from the Nefteprovod-2 site and was buried without any materials. The grave was originally assigned to the Karasuk culture however, this does not align with the radiocarbon dating from this study which points to an earlier archeological context. Kra001 may have instead belonged to the Late Isakovo/Serovo/Glazkovo horizon which existed between the Angara river and Lake Baikal from the Neolithic to early Bronze Age. This fits with the sample's autosomal profile which seems related to Baikal_EBA (Glazkovo).

    The other samples from the study (N4b2 and brn003/brn008), seem to show continuity with kra001, in both Y chromosome and admixture despite being located far away in Yakutia and Trans-Baikal respectively. This makes me wonder if kra001 may have actually been a relatively recent migrant from farther east.

    Then there is the question of in what context N-L1026 spread westwards? Soviet and later Russian archeologists have posited that the late Neolithic populations of the Yenisei basin played a role in the genesis of the Seima-Turbino phenomenon. Specifically drawing parallels between their flint and bone tool industries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    So kra001 looks like a decent fit for the Nganasan-like component in Uralic peoples?

    The sample is burial 1 from the Nefteprovod-2 site and was buried without any materials. The grave was originally assigned to the Karasuk culture however, this does not align with the radiocarbon dating from this study which points to an earlier archeological context. Kra001 may have instead belonged to the Late Isakovo/Serovo/Glazkovo horizon which existed between the Angara river and Lake Baikal from the Neolithic to early Bronze Age. This fits with the sample's autosomal profile which seems related to Baikal_EBA (Glazkovo).

    The other samples from the study (N4b2 and brn003/brn008), seem to show continuity with kra001, in both Y chromosome and admixture despite being located far away in Yakutia and Trans-Baikal respectively. This makes me wonder if kra001 may have actually been a relatively recent migrant from farther east.

    Then there is the question of in what context N-L1026 spread westwards? Soviet and later Russian archeologists have posited that the late Neolithic populations of the Yenisei basin played a role in the genesis of the Seima-Turbino phenomenon. Specifically drawing parallels between their flint and bone tool industries.
    Seimo-Turbino is the only option.

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    Dimitri has analyzed N samples on Molgen, and here is a Google translation of his comment:

    "In the brn08 sample (6490 YBP age), 16 snips of the L708 level were confirmed, but 4 snips from the same level turned out to be negative - i.e. this pattern splits branch L708 one level above the current split into Y9022 and M2126.

    For sample brn03 (age 5750 YBP), 8 SNPs of the M2126 level were confirmed, but 4 SNPs from the same level turned out to be negative - i.e. this pattern splits branch M2126 one level above the current split into M2019 and L1026.

    It will be very useful to see these samples in the YFull tree - after all, judging by the correlation of the age of the corresponding bone remains with the age of mutations, these people were not so distant relatives of the ancestors of almost all Russian representatives of the male Y-chromosomal haplogroup N!
    "

    This means that the haplotype of brn03 is not ancestral to Uralic M2126 but a parallel branch. On the other hand, brn08 is phylogenetically between Uralic L708 and F1419 (which includes the Khakass line B187).

    https://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=13237.0

    We already have quite a lot of samples from Isakovo/Serovo/Glazkovo horizon and all samples are Q except for one N-B187 and two C2a-B79 samples:
    Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 7160-6910 calBP I7759 Mos82 Q1b-M346
    Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 6300-6210 calBP I7336 Mos111 Q1a2-M25
    Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 4860-4650 calBP I1526 Mos106 Q1b1-L53/S326
    Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 4850-4650 calBP I7779 Mos114 Q1b1-L53/S326
    Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 4790-4440 calBP I7780 Mos117 Q1b1-L53
    Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 4520-4410 calBP I7335 Mos110 Q1b1-L53/S326
    Ust Ida LN 4730 uncal BP/4885 BP DA345/Glazkovo N1a1a2-B187 (under F1419) (yfull)
    Ust Ida Baikal LN 4750 BP DA355/Glazkovo Q1b1b1-YP4004 (Q-L53)
    Neolithic Cis-Baikal (Glazkovo) Korkino Irkutsk Oblast 4150-3950 calBC irk030 Q1b1a3-L330
    BA_outlier Glazkovskoe predmestie Irkutsk 4788–4445 BP GLZ001 C2b1; C2a1a2-B79 (ISOGG 2019) (Jin Sun et al)
    BA_outlier Glazkovskoe predmestie Irkutsk 4518–4300 BP GLZ002 C2b1; C2a1a2-B79 (ISOGG 2019) (Jin Sun et al)
    LNBA Glazkovskoe predmestie Irkutsk city 4519–4417 BP GLZ003 Q1a2a; Q1b1-L53/S326 (ISOGG 2019)
    LNBA Zapleskino Upper Lena river 4239–4090 BP ZPL002 Q1a2a; Q1b1-L53 (ISOGG 2019)

    I think that pottery was made by females, and therefore it rather points to the origin of females.

    This is the location of KRA001 (5611'41.1"N 9549'10.3"E):
    KRA001 location.GIF

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    Some samples have already been posted on YFull:

    brn008 - N1a-L708*
    N4b2 - N1a-M2126
    brn003 - N1a-M2126*
    kra001 - N1a-L1026*
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 01-15-2021 at 06:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    We already have quite a lot of samples from Isakovo/Serovo/Glazkovo horizon and all samples are Q except for one N-B187 and two C2a-B79 samples:
    Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 7160-6910 calBP I7759 Mos82 Q1b-M346
    Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 6300-6210 calBP I7336 Mos111 Q1a2-M25
    Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 4860-4650 calBP I1526 Mos106 Q1b1-L53/S326
    Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 4850-4650 calBP I7779 Mos114 Q1b1-L53/S326
    Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 4790-4440 calBP I7780 Mos117 Q1b1-L53
    Ust’-Belaya II Angara river 4520-4410 calBP I7335 Mos110 Q1b1-L53/S326
    Ust Ida LN 4730 uncal BP/4885 BP DA345/Glazkovo N1a1a2-B187 (under F1419) (yfull)
    Ust Ida Baikal LN 4750 BP DA355/Glazkovo Q1b1b1-YP4004 (Q-L53)
    Neolithic Cis-Baikal (Glazkovo) Korkino Irkutsk Oblast 4150-3950 calBC irk030 Q1b1a3-L330
    BA_outlier Glazkovskoe predmestie Irkutsk 4788–4445 BP GLZ001 C2b1; C2a1a2-B79 (ISOGG 2019) (Jin Sun et al)
    BA_outlier Glazkovskoe predmestie Irkutsk 4518–4300 BP GLZ002 C2b1; C2a1a2-B79 (ISOGG 2019) (Jin Sun et al)
    LNBA Glazkovskoe predmestie Irkutsk city 4519–4417 BP GLZ003 Q1a2a; Q1b1-L53/S326 (ISOGG 2019)
    LNBA Zapleskino Upper Lena river 4239–4090 BP ZPL002 Q1a2a; Q1b1-L53 (ISOGG 2019)

    I think that pottery was made by females, and therefore it rather points to the origin of females.

    This is the location of KRA001 (5611'41.1"N 9549'10.3"E):
    KRA001 location.GIF
    Karmin et al. (2015) found C-B79 in a present-day Koryak individual and placed it downstream of C-L1373 and parallel to C-F914 (≈ C-M504), C-B473 (≈ C-F3918), and C-M48. The ISOGG 2019 ~ 2020 Haplogroup C Tree has C-B79 placed tentatively downstream of C-Y11990 and parallel to C-Z30635 (found in a present-day individual from Slovakia and in an 855 - 905 ybp specimen from the central steppe attributed to the Kipchaks) and C-Z22425 (found in present-day individuals from the USA, Germany, and Kashmir). This clade seems to be extremely rare at present, and its MRCA with C-M48 (a clade that is common among present-day speakers of Tungusic languages, Mongolic languages, and members of the Junior Jz of the Kazakhs) and C-M504 (a clade that includes the "Star Cluster" that was once hypothesized to have been spread by descendants of Genghis Khan and which predominates among present-day Hazaras, Kerei Kazakhs, and members of the Senior Jz of the Kazakhs) dates back to 14,100 (95% CI 12,800 <-> 15,400) ybp, the time of the MRCA of all members of the C-F1699 clade.

    These C-B79 Bronze Age outliers from Irkutsk Oblast are not clearly ancestral to any living people, and their nearest extant Y-DNA relatives might be found among Chukotko-Kamchatkans. Likewise, the numerous specimens from Neolithic to Iron Age Manchuria and Mongolia that belong to the C-F1756 clade cannot be patrilineal ancestors of the majority of present-day Tungusic-, Mongolic-, or Turkic-speaking members of C-M217, most of whom belong to C-M48 (and especially C-M86), C-M504, or C-M407.

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    I know the area was overwhelmingly Q1b but, the Nefteprovod-2 site to which kra001 belongs is thought to be a Karasuk burial site over top of an earlier Glazkovo strata.
    https://doi.org/10.1590/0074-02760160442

    Like I mentioned before, perhaps this means kra001 was a recent migrant from farther east, where it is now clear there was pre-N-L1026 subclades and genetic continuity in the form of the "Yakutia_Lena_Kolyma_4780_2490_BP group".

    Whatever the case may be, this population was obviously very mobile, with N-L1026 apparently being found in the Ob River basin around 4000ybp (not confirmed) and in Kola peninsula 3500ybp. It must also not have been effected by the population replacement which occurred during the late Neolithic in Cis-Baikal. All of which may have something to do with climate.

    From Kılın et al. (2021) "A multiple sequentially Markovian coalescent (MSMC) analysis revealed that the effective population size of Yakutia_Lena_Kolyma_4780_2490_BP was low ~4700 years ago, consistent with the low genetic diversity observed in this group. Although effective population size estimates of human groups in Cis-Baikal ~6100 to 5600 years ago were comparably high, they decreased ~4400 years ago. Similarity between the observed low effective population sizes in Cis-Baikal and Yakutia 4700 to 4400 years ago could mirror global climatic changes, i.e., cooling of the Subboreal Period, and might indicate a possible population collapse ~4700 to 4000 years ago."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    Like I mentioned before, perhaps this means kra001 was a recent migrant from farther east, where it is now clear there was pre-N-L1026 subclades and genetic continuity in the form of the "Yakutia_Lena_Kolyma_4780_2490_BP group".
    [/I]."
    Did you check yfull? Kyordyughen 1 N4b2 2475-2295 calBCE is N-M2126 on yfull, just like brn003 in Trans-Baikal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Did you check yfull? Kyordyughen 1 N4b2 2475-2295 calBCE is N-M2126 on yfull, just like brn003 in Trans-Baikal.
    Yes, kra001 belongs to N-L1026* which is downstream from N-M2126.

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