Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 68

Thread: Increase in WHG ancestry in the Baltic to the Volga post-Corded Ware

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,013
    Sex

    Increase in WHG ancestry in the Baltic to the Volga post-Corded Ware

    Quick question to knowledgeable members of this forum:

    If we compare the Late neolithic genomes from the Corded Ware horizon from the Baltics (Latvia_LN, Lithuania_LN, Estonia_CordedWare) to genomes from the BA and after (Latvia_BA, Lithuania_BA, Estonia_IA and Estonia_MED), the Corded Ware genomes are not that different from CW samples from elsewhere in Europe, while the genomes from the BA and later are much, much richer in WHG ancestry (and to a lesser degree EEF ancestry); the WHG-richness is a distinctive characteristic of Baltic populations today compared to the rest of Northeastern and Northwestern Europe. Now we see that modern Russians are also higher in WHG ancestry than Fatyanovo genomes from the most recent paper. What happened in this region from the Baltics to the Volga that caused this increase in WHG ancestry?

    1. If this reflects the expansion of some kind of "Balto-Slavic" type population which was admixed heavily with WHGs, where did it form and how is this expansion visible archaeologically?
    2. If this reflects an eastern expansion of the post-BA Baltic gene pool associated with Baltic-speaking populations, is there archaeological evidence for a movement from the Baltics to the Volga region in the post-CW period?
    3. If this took place independently in all these locations (almost certainly false for the Fatyanovo-->Russian case because WHG populations did not extend that far east), what is the process involved?
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

  2. The Following 18 Users Say Thank You to Ryukendo For This Useful Post:

     Alain (07-15-2020),  DMXX (07-15-2020),  Erikl86 (07-15-2020),  etrusco (07-15-2020),  George (07-15-2020),  Hando (07-17-2020),  Helves (07-15-2020),  Huck Finn (07-15-2020),  JMcB (07-15-2020),  Lupriac (07-23-2020),  Michał (07-16-2020),  palamede (07-17-2020),  Pribislav (07-20-2020),  Psynome (07-15-2020),  Riverman (07-23-2020),  T101 (07-16-2020),  traject (07-16-2020),  vettor (07-16-2020)

  3. #2
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,557
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Z93
    mtDNA (M)
    H28a/H1b5(Wife)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Quick question to knowledgeable members of this forum:

    If we compare the Late neolithic genomes from the Corded Ware horizon from the Baltics (Latvia_LN, Lithuania_LN, Estonia_CordedWare) to genomes from the BA and after (Latvia_BA, Lithuania_BA, Estonia_IA and Estonia_MED), the Corded Ware genomes are not that different from CW samples from elsewhere in Europe, while the genomes from the BA and later are much, much richer in WHG ancestry (and to a lesser degree EEF ancestry); the WHG-richness is a distinctive characteristic of Baltic populations today compared to the rest of Northeastern and Northwestern Europe. Now we see that modern Russians are also higher in WHG ancestry than Fatyanovo genomes from the most recent paper. What happened in this region from the Baltics to the Volga that caused this increase in WHG ancestry?

    1. If this reflects the expansion of some kind of "Balto-Slavic" type population which was admixed heavily with WHGs, where did it form and how is this expansion visible archaeologically?
    2. If this reflects an eastern expansion of the post-BA Baltic gene pool associated with Baltic-speaking populations, is there archaeological evidence for a movement from the Baltics to the Volga region in the post-CW period?
    3. If this took place independently in all these locations (almost certainly false for the Fatyanovo-->Russian case because WHG populations did not extend that far east), what is the process involved?
    There was mixing with Balt_LTU_Narva-like types in the South Baltic somewhere between Poland and Lithuania, where Proto-Balto-Slavs formed, who were around 70-80% WHG and 20-30% EHG. All Balto-Slavs show this kind of extra HG admix . Balt_BA maybe has some extra HG ancestry from further EHG-shifted groups in Estonia and Latvia. Slavs rather not because they formed in regions were the HG substrate was rather WHG-like (Lithuania, Belarus, Poland)

    But the extra HG-ancestry is also caused by extra GAC-admixture which was rich in WHG himself. It is also possible that some GAC subgroups were even further WHG shifted than the currently published samples. Volosovo and most EHGs either became extinct, were absorbed in small numbers by Finno-Ugrians or peripheral Balto-Slavic groups.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 07-15-2020 at 07:24 PM.

  4. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Coldmountains For This Useful Post:

     Alain (07-15-2020),  Awale (07-15-2020),  Hando (07-20-2020),  homunculus (07-15-2020),  leonardo (07-15-2020),  palamede (07-17-2020),  Psynome (07-15-2020),  Ryukendo (07-15-2020)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,013
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    There was mixing with Balt_LTU_Narva-like types in the South Baltic somewhere between Poland and Lithuania, where Proto-Balto-Slavs formed, who were around 70-80% WHG and 20-30% EHG. All Balto-Slavs show this kind of extra HG admix . Balt_BA maybe has some extra HG ancestry from further EHG-shifted groups in Estonia and Latvia. Slavs rather not because they formed in regions were the HG substrate was rather WHG-like (Lithuania, Belarus, Poland)

    But the extra HG-ancestry is also caused by extra GAC-admixture which was rich in WHG himself. It is also possible that some GAC subgroups were even further WHG shifted than the currently published samples. Volosovo and most EHGs either became extinct, were absorbed in small numbers by Finno-Ugrians or peripheral Balto-Slavic groups.
    So combining this with the existence of "Balto-Slavic drift" in some samples the idea is that either
    A) some Balto-Slavic population w this "Balto-Slavic drift" formed with a "proto-Balto-Slavic" population admixing with some HG-rich population, then Balts and Slavs also admix separately with HG populations with varying ratios of WHG and EHG OR
    B ) some Balto-Slavic population w this "Balto-Slavic drift" existed, then Balts and Slavs admix separately with HG populations with varying ratios of WHG and EHG?

    Also, this implies that these HG-rich populations moved as far East as the Volga eventually, causing a discontinuity between the CW groups (e.g. Fatianska) and modern Russians, either dating back to the Baltic period or the Slavic migrations, correct? Do we have evidence for how far east Baltic speakers reached, and if they in fact expanded from West to East? What does the archaeology suggest, does anything suggest Baltic_BA moving East? Alternatively, is there evidence that the Russians are heavily descended from Slavic migration instead?

    Edit: some questions you answered already
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 07-15-2020 at 07:40 PM.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ryukendo For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-20-2020),  hel (07-21-2020)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,761
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-S336
    mtDNA (M)
    K1c1

    We've seen this WHG resurgence happen elsewhere: all around Europe during the Neolithic. The difference in the Baltics (and maybe Belarus etc) is the date and how the CWC populations have taken the role of the Neolithic farmers who never pushed into HG territory there, but the mechanism could have been similar. Additionally Lithuanian BA samples have lower WHG than Estonian and Latvian BA, closer to modern Balts. I figure the reduction in Latvia could have been related to the Western Baltic dialects' expansion in the south and perhaps South Estonian in the north. Since we don't know how widely Baltic_BA-like populations lived in say Western Russia or Belarus it's harder to speculate if Baltic expansion caused a similar effect there.

  8. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Shaikorth For This Useful Post:

     Coldmountains (07-15-2020),  Hando (07-20-2020),  Michał (07-16-2020),  parasar (07-16-2020),  Psynome (07-15-2020),  Riverman (07-23-2020),  Ryukendo (07-15-2020)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,013
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    We've seen this WHG resurgence happen elsewhere: all around Europe during the Neolithic. The difference in the Baltics (and maybe Belarus etc) is the date and how the CWC populations have taken the role of the Neolithic farmers who never pushed into HG territory there, but the mechanism could have been similar. Additionally Lithuanian BA samples have lower WHG than Estonian and Latvian BA, closer to modern Balts. I figure the reduction in Latvia could have been related to the Western Baltic dialects' expansion in the south and perhaps South Estonian in the north. Since we don't know how widely Baltic_BA-like populations lived in say Western Russia or Belarus it's harder to speculate if Baltic expansion caused a similar effect there.
    You might find this interesting: its not just the IE speakers of NE Europe who show this, but also many Uralics (e.g. Komi, Karelians, Mordovians), but some populations West of the Urals don't (e.g. Udmurt and Mari) and all populations East of the Urals don't (e.g. Khanty and Selkup), their Steppe ancestry is straight CW-like or even Sintashta-like with evidence of direct continuity from ancient CW-Fatianska types with no raised ratio for WHG that characterises Baltic_BA or Slavics. The question becomes one of where precisely the Uralics moving East collided with WHG-rich Balts, it seems that in between the Uralics and Balts there were also other populations that did not share in the raised WHG of the Balts and Slavs.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ryukendo For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-20-2020),  palamede (07-17-2020)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    326
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian
    Y-DNA (P)
    G1a
    mtDNA (M)
    I5b1

    Sweden
    The ratio of EHG to WHG in the HGs who mixed into the Corded Ware population in Northeastern/Eastern Europe is difficult to calculate since it varies whether you use a WHG-rich farmer group like GAC as the source of ANF admixture in modern Balto-Slavs or not. But I believe there were two HG types who contributed to the proto-Balto-Slavic genepool, one Narva-Kunda like with high WHG and one related to the Comb Ceramic culture which I presume was heavily EHG.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Helves For This Useful Post:

     Alain (07-15-2020),  Hando (07-20-2020)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    181
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    You might find this interesting: its not just the IE speakers of NE Europe who show this, but also many Uralics (e.g. Komi, Karelians, Mordovians), but some populations West of the Urals don't (e.g. Udmurt and Mari) and all populations East of the Urals don't (e.g. Khanty and Selkup), their Steppe ancestry is straight CW-like or even Sintashta-like with evidence of direct continuity from ancient CW-Fatianska types with no raised ratio for WHG that characterises Baltic_BA or Slavics. The question becomes one of where precisely the Uralics moving East collided with WHG-rich Balts, it seems that in between the Uralics and Balts there were also other populations that did not share in the raised WHG of the Balts and Slavs.
    Does this "prove" that the Uralic groups in Western Siberia have local continuity since the the late bronze age?

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Granary For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-20-2020),  Psynome (07-15-2020)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,761
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-S336
    mtDNA (M)
    K1c1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    You might find this interesting: its not just the IE speakers of NE Europe who show this, but also many Uralics (e.g. Komi, Karelians, Mordovians), but some populations West of the Urals don't (e.g. Udmurt and Mari) and all populations East of the Urals don't (e.g. Khanty and Selkup), their Steppe ancestry is straight CW-like or even Sintashta-like with evidence of direct continuity from ancient CW-Fatianska types with no raised ratio for WHG that characterises Baltic_BA or Slavics. The question becomes one of where precisely the Uralics moving East collided with WHG-rich Balts, it seems that in between the Uralics and Balts there were also other populations that did not share in the raised WHG of the Balts and Slavs.
    (Para?)Indo-Iranian remnants are an obvious candidate for that. Additionally more recent mixing with Huns/Turks etc. may have caused a reduction of WHG affecting statistic qpAdm fits for Mari and Udmurts (who also have a strange Y-DNA profile in EBC's research, with less Uralic-specific L1026 clades than even the Nganasans and Hungarians at the extreme ends of the group). One might also speculate there was a R1a-M558 carrying population which lacked some Y-DNA typical of Slavs like I2-Din which spread further east than Balts did and that was what spread WHG beyond the Dnieper Balts.

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Shaikorth For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-20-2020),  Ryukendo (07-15-2020)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,013
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    (Para?)Indo-Iranian remnants are an obvious candidate for that. Additionally more recent mixing with Huns/Turks etc. may have caused a reduction of WHG affecting statistic qpAdm fits for Mari and Udmurts (who also have a strange Y-DNA profile in EBC's research, with less Uralic-specific L1026 clades than even the Nganasans and Hungarians at the extreme ends of the group). One might also speculate there was a R1a-M558 carrying population which lacked some Y-DNA typical of Slavs like I2-Din which spread further east than Balts did and that was what spread WHG beyond the Dnieper Balts.
    So the furthest east the Balts ever reached (that current ethnology at least supports) is the Dniepr? What is the evidence for this spread, and the archaeology for this? @Coldmountains, you know anything about this?
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

  18. #10
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,557
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Z93
    mtDNA (M)
    H28a/H1b5(Wife)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    So combining this with the existence of "Balto-Slavic drift" in some samples the idea is that either
    A) some Balto-Slavic population w this "Balto-Slavic drift" formed with a "proto-Balto-Slavic" population admixing with some HG-rich population, then Balts and Slavs also admix separately with HG populations with varying ratios of WHG and EHG OR
    B ) some Balto-Slavic population w this "Balto-Slavic drift" existed, then Balts and Slavs admix separately with HG populations with varying ratios of WHG and EHG?

    Also, this implies that these HG-rich populations moved as far East as the Volga eventually, causing a discontinuity between the CW groups (e.g. Fatianska) and modern Russians, either dating back to the Baltic period or the Slavic migrations, correct? Do we have evidence for how far east Baltic speakers reached, and if they in fact expanded from West to East? What does the archaeology suggest, does anything suggest Baltic_BA moving East? Alternatively, is there evidence that the Russians are heavily descended from Slavic migration instead?

    Edit: some questions you answered already
    Balto-Slavic drift is complicating things here because it makes Balto-Slavs preferring basal components like EHG or EEF/LBK over Steppe and GAC especially when Slavs show some extra HG and Balkan admixture.

    Nevertheless we don't really now how high was Balto-Slavic-like ancestry in Russia prior to Slavs. I would be surprised if it was absent east of Belarus untill Slavs. The Baltic hydronyms from Smolensk to Moscow and Baltic loanwords in Mordvinic point to some kind of presence of Balto-Slavic groups in the region prior to Slavs. Regions like Smolensk still show this Baltic-shift and had likely already a Baltic population prior to Slavs regions more in the east look in my eyes rather Finno-Ugrian.

  19. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Coldmountains For This Useful Post:

     Alain (07-15-2020),  Hando (07-20-2020),  Michał (07-16-2020),  Psynome (07-15-2020),  Ryukendo (07-15-2020),  T101 (07-16-2020)

Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. R-Y5587 IS FROM YAMNAYA & CORDED WARE?
    By Zulca in forum R1b-Z2103/Z2105
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-27-2020, 07:07 PM
  2. R1a and Corded Ware
    By Michał in forum R1a General
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 10-11-2019, 03:52 AM
  3. Corded Ware, check yourself G25. (not for fun)
    By AlexRus in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 108
    Last Post: 05-01-2019, 10:35 AM
  4. R1b in Corded Ware
    By rms2 in forum R1b General
    Replies: 88
    Last Post: 04-19-2016, 12:34 AM
  5. First ancient genomes from Corded Ware
    By rms2 in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 369
    Last Post: 11-27-2014, 04:39 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •