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Thread: Increase in WHG ancestry in the Baltic to the Volga post-Corded Ware

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    So the furthest east the Balts ever reached (that current ethnology at least supports) is the Dniepr? What is the evidence for this spread, and the archaeology for this? @Coldmountains, you know anything about this?
    Further than that, to Oka even.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshchiny_culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    So the furthest east the Balts ever reached (that current ethnology at least supports) is the Dniepr? What is the evidence for this spread, and the archaeology for this? @Coldmountains, you know anything about this?
    https://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266_grunthal.pdf

    Page 5 of the PDF there is a map of Baltic hydronyms, the easternmost where we can imagine Balts while using just such linguistic evidence is a line from Tver, Moscow and Kursk.

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    Is there a certain component that can represent this "Balto-Slavic" type of genetic drift in G25?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    https://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266_grunthal.pdf

    Page 5 of the PDF there is a map of Baltic hydronyms, the easternmost where we can imagine Balts while using just such linguistic evidence is a line from Tver, Moscow and Kursk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    Further than that, to Oka even.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshchiny_culture
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Balto-Slavic drift is complicating things here because it makes Balto-Slavs preferring basal components like EHG or EEF/LBK over Steppe and GAC especially when Slavs show some extra HG and Balkan admixture.

    Nevertheless we don't really now how high was Balto-Slavic-like ancestry in Russia prior to Slavs. I would be surprised if it was absent east of Belarus untill Slavs. The Baltic hydronyms from Smolensk to Moscow and Baltic loanwords in Mordvinic point to some kind of presence of Balto-Slavic groups in the region prior to Slavs. Regions like Smolensk still show this Baltic-shift and had likely already a Baltic population prior to Slavs regions more in the east look in my eyes rather Finno-Ugrian.

    Hmmmmm... I see. Excellent, amazing answers everyone!

    Grunthal et. al. give the following linguistic stratigraphy of loandwords in Mordvinic:

    Modern Erzya and Moksha: Intensive Russian influence; Local contacts with Turkic languages
    Early divergence between Erzya and Moksha: Local contacts between Mordvinic and Turkic languages, Early Slavic influence
    Proto-Mordvinic: Late Baltic influence
    Pre-Mordvinic: Early contacts with Baltic and Iranian languages; Proto-Indo-Iranian influence
    Proto-Finno-Ugric (~ Proto-Uralic): Early Proto-Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European influence
    The picture seems quite clear now. It may fit very well with the genetic data about the Balto-Slavic like admixture on the West Eurasian side of Uralics being limited to some western members of that family, while most of the other members show ancestry from straight CW through either Fatianska, Abashevo, Sintashta etc (we don't know which yet, but its gotta be one of these).

    Followup question: Is there any work done on the distribution of Baltic loanwords in Uralic languages? It would be amazing if the populations that show this raised WHG signature also show many Baltic elements in the lexicon.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 07-15-2020 at 08:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    You might find this interesting: its not just the IE speakers of NE Europe who show this, but also many Uralics (e.g. Komi, Karelians, Mordovians), but some populations West of the Urals don't (e.g. Udmurt and Mari) and all populations East of the Urals don't (e.g. Khanty and Selkup), their Steppe ancestry is straight CW-like or even Sintashta-like with evidence of direct continuity from ancient CW-Fatianska types with no raised ratio for WHG that characterises Baltic_BA or Slavics. The question becomes one of where precisely the Uralics moving East collided with WHG-rich Balts, it seems that in between the Uralics and Balts there were also other populations that did not share in the raised WHG of the Balts and Slavs.
    Almost all non-Slavs west of the Urals in Russia show very significant Slavic admixture what makes it hard to get a good idea of the genetic profile of Pre-Slavs in Central Russia. Mordovians for example seem to have around 40-50% Hun_Avar_Szolad_2 admix and a lot of recent Slavic y-dna. I think that even Udmurts and Mari have some kind of Slavic y-dna and minor Slavic autosomal dna but i am not fully sure here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    Further than that, to Oka even.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshchiny_culture
    Follow up question (to you too @Coldmountains):

    The Moschiny culture is very young (4-7th C AD), if we want things to work out linguistically the archaeological culture associated with this eastward displacement of Baltic-like populations would have to be older, no? Definitely older than at least (from Grunthal's paper posted by Granary) the Late Iron Age. Are there older versions of this eastward movement that parallel the movement of the Moschiny culture?
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    This occurred not only on the eastside of the North European Plain, but also, agreed a bit more modest I agree on the northwest side.....

    Davidski:
    (Real) Germanics didn't suddenly migrate from far away into southern Scandinavia.

    They were the result of various forms of population mixtures in this region that mostly included the descendants of local TRB farmers and Single Grave people.
    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...be-bowmen.html

    The mixing of SGC with TRB (very high in HG) enhanced the HG amount.

    TRB and their auDNA, by FrankN

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Almost all non-Slavs west of the Urals in Russia show very significant Slavic admixture what makes it hard to get a good idea of the genetic profile of Pre-Slavs in Central Russia. Mordovians for example seem to have around 40-50% Hun_Avar_Szolad_2 admix and a lot of recent Slavic y-dna. I think that even Udmurts and Mari have some kind of Slavic y-dna and minor Slavic autosomal dna but i am not fully sure here.
    I agree, but the percentage in groups other than the ones I mentioned (Mordvins, Karelians, Komi etc.) must be quite small because from what I've seen they show much less of the raised WHG ancestry that characterises all Balts and Slavs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    I agree, but the percentage in groups other than the ones I mentioned (Mordvins, Karelians, Komi etc.) must be quite small because from what I've seen they show much less of the raised WHG ancestry that characterises all Balts and Slavs.
    I have the feeling that Pre-Slavic Finno-Ugrians in Central Russia were mostly Udmurt-like but with a Baltic_IA-shift and higher Sintashta-shift. Many modern day Russians from Central Russia seem to pick up some Udmurt-like signal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    I agree, but the percentage in groups other than the ones I mentioned (Mordvins, Karelians, Komi etc.) must be quite small because from what I've seen they show much less of the raised WHG ancestry that characterises all Balts and Slavs.
    Baltic admixture will show up as high Hun_Avar_Szolad_2 too, becomes apparent if trying to model Lithuanians with Baltic_BA and Hun_Avar_Szolad. Karelians should prefer Estonia_IA, Mordvins definitely not, and to support that there isn't significant IBD sharing between Mordvins and Karelians either relatively, meaning their split is considerably older than Baltic expansion to Russia.
    G25:
    Distance: 1.5393%

    Mordovian

    HUN_Avar_Szolad,55
    Hun_Tian_Shan,21.2
    Baltic_LVA_BA,18
    RUS_Sintashta_MLBA,5.8

    Baltic_EST_IA,0
    RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov,0
    Last edited by Shaikorth; 07-15-2020 at 08:56 PM.

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