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Thread: Increase in WHG ancestry in the Baltic to the Volga post-Corded Ware

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    U5b1b1a, V7 and V1a are not steppe haplogroups and will not be proven to be from Indo-Iranians.

    Bolshoy population was heterogeneous in that one outlier woman was more Siberian than N males. It is much more parsimonious to presume that this woman presents an intrusive element from the east.
    V7 (OBKR_5, OBKR_6,OBKR_84) and V1a (OBKR_95) were found in Bronze Age Germany dated between 2136 and 1780 calBCE . Generally early Indo-Iranians shared a lot of mtdna clades with Bell Beakers and Corded Ware-derived groups much further west so there is a good chance some V clades existed in Fatyanovo. But for now we can not really determine the exact ethno-linguistical origin of this clades and based on their ancient distribution it is rather unlikely from my point of view, that their initial spread is linked to the movements of Proto-Uralics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    You can't jump around too much in terms of the periods that you source your samples from, because you have to be careful with overlapping components, especially with samples that don't quite yet have the relevant reference samples available for them.
    What do you think, do the models show more or less an accurate % of HG ancestry in Balts, Slavs and Finns?

    BalticDrift Scaled.png

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  5. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korotyr View Post
    What do you think, do the models show more or less an accurate % of HG ancestry in Balts, Slavs and Finns?

    BalticDrift Scaled.png
    That looks fairly accurate, although I don't like using ghosts myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Korotyr View Post
    What do you think, do the models show more or less an accurate % of HG ancestry in Balts, Slavs and Finns?

    BalticDrift Scaled.png
    Slavs and Balts should show mainly GAC-like farmer admix based on a lot of shared mtdna with GAC/Scandinavians and chronology. GAC groups in Poland and modern day/ancient Balto-Slavs shared many mtdna clades (H1b1, H1b2, J1c3f, H28a, U5b2b1a1,..) . GAC-like farmers populated Central East Europe before CWC and all sampled Corded Ware subgroups derive their farmer ancestry from GAC-like groups. Balto-Slavic drift is generally making modelling difficult and making Slavs slightly prefering more basal components like LBK over GAC and HG over steppe especially when Slavs show later Balkan_IA admix and all Balto-Slavs direct HG admix. Rather i think the direct HG subsrate is around 15-20% among Balts and among North Slavs around 10-15% (on top of what was brought by GAC-like groups)

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  9. #65
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    It appears from a closer analysis of V haplotypes that Finns, Saami and Tatars share several V haplotypes on a large time span.

    We analyzed 32 published haplogroup V mitochondrial genomes from populations of Finns and Saami (Finnilä et al. 2001; Ingman and Gyllensten 2007) and three novel genomes from populations of Russians and Czechs (EU567453-EU567455) (supplementary fig. S3, Supplementary Material online). As a result, we have found that three mtDNAs of Tatars fall into subcluster V1a that is very frequent among Finns (Finnilä et al. 2001). It is noteworthy that Tatars and Finns share mtDNAs from this subcluster on a large time span—from 7.9 and 2.8 ka ago (for complete genome and synonymous rates, respectively) for subcluster V1a to 0.85 ka ago and even less (for complete genome and synonymous rates) for small subcluster V1a1a1 (table 3). In addition, analysis of subcluster V3a demonstrates that divergence between Russian/Finnish mtDNAs is estimated as 4.8 and 7.9 ka ago (for complete genome and synonymous rates, respectively)

    Source: fhttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/44587449_Mitogenomic_Diversity_in_Tatars_from_the_ Volga-Ural_Region_of_Russia/link/5539a5f40cf2239f4e7daa53/download

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Quick question to knowledgeable members of this forum:

    If we compare the Late neolithic genomes from the Corded Ware horizon from the Baltics (Latvia_LN, Lithuania_LN, Estonia_CordedWare) to genomes from the BA and after (Latvia_BA, Lithuania_BA, Estonia_IA and Estonia_MED), the Corded Ware genomes are not that different from CW samples from elsewhere in Europe, while the genomes from the BA and later are much, much richer in WHG ancestry (and to a lesser degree EEF ancestry); the WHG-richness is a distinctive characteristic of Baltic populations today compared to the rest of Northeastern and Northwestern Europe. Now we see that modern Russians are also higher in WHG ancestry than Fatyanovo genomes from the most recent paper. What happened in this region from the Baltics to the Volga that caused this increase in WHG ancestry?

    1. If this reflects the expansion of some kind of "Balto-Slavic" type population which was admixed heavily with WHGs, where did it form and how is this expansion visible archaeologically?
    2. If this reflects an eastern expansion of the post-BA Baltic gene pool associated with Baltic-speaking populations, is there archaeological evidence for a movement from the Baltics to the Volga region in the post-CW period?
    3. If this took place independently in all these locations (almost certainly false for the Fatyanovo-->Russian case because WHG populations did not extend that far east), what is the process involved?
    In some regions in NW Europe we see the same. Especially in TRB-West (or as the Germans say Tiefstich). Single Grave people were highly Steppe pastoralist. The Bell Beaker were already admixed with the neolithic Funnelbeakers (TRB ). In BA the Funnelbeaker component enhanced. So did the HG component.

    This is especially the case in TRB-West. TRB Sweden and TRB Poland were 75-80% EEF but TRB-West, see Blatterhöhle MN, had amounts of 60% HG (Ertebølle). May be on the Baltic this was more extreme.... But as such it occurred also in parts of NW Europe.

    See:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post687414

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    In some regions in NW Europe we see the same. Especially in TRB-West (or as the Germans say Tiefstich). Single Grave people were highly Steppe pastoralist. The Bell Beaker were already admixed with the neolithic Funnelbeakers (TRB ). In BA the Funnelbeaker component enhanced. So did the HG component.

    This is especially the case in TRB-West. TRB Sweden and TRB Poland were 75-80% EEF but TRB-West, see Blatterhöhle MN, had amounts of 60% HG (Ertebølle). May be on the Baltic this was more extreme.... But as such it occurred also in parts of NW Europe.

    See:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post687414
    Yep, you'll see this clearly in the new data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    In some regions in NW Europe we see the same. Especially in TRB-West (or as the Germans say Tiefstich). Single Grave people were highly Steppe pastoralist. The Bell Beaker were already admixed with the neolithic Funnelbeakers (TRB ). In BA the Funnelbeaker component enhanced. So did the HG component.

    This is especially the case in TRB-West. TRB Sweden and TRB Poland were 75-80% EEF but TRB-West, see Blatterhöhle MN, had amounts of 60% HG (Ertebølle). May be on the Baltic this was more extreme.... But as such it occurred also in parts of NW Europe.

    See:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post687414
    This phenomenon appeared slightly in 2019, under the form of an unlikely affinity of some western Bronze groups to Combed_ware. See for example my post https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post619376 . When I'll get time I'll reproduce these analyses with Blätterhöhle and the new qpAdm. I can't wait to see new data where this appears more obviously.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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