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Thread: G25 Modern Averages scaled results

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    For now we can not accurately model every ancestry group contributing to Central and South Asians without more BA genomes from Afghanistan/Arachosia, Tajikistan and South Asia (no ancient Indian HG samples, no R1a-L657 samples from Central Asia) . I for now would not make any definite claim about the genetic profile of early Indo-Aryans settling in South Asia. None of the steppe groups sampled so far matches Indo-Aryan R1a clades so they are unlikely direct ancestors of Indo-Aryans and at best a indirect proxies for real Proto-Indo-Aryan ancestry. Indo-Aryans arriving in South Asia surely were rich in R1a-L657, R1a-Z2123, R1a-Y40, L, J2 and a mix of Sintashta-like, BMAC-like and WSHG-like ancestry but how exactly the ratio of these components was is impossible to say for now and probably was very different from clan to clan.
    Agreed, also there will be significant variation among them. Central Steppe works great but I am wondering is it superficial, because a) no L657,Z2123 in any of those Andronovo samples b) That upcoming paper says Western Steppe (Srubnaya) preferred, which would mean the uptake of WSHG would be via groups like Aigryzhal , etc. That kind of makes sense because the alternative is where you would find that. Even that Kokcha sample it was more Western Steppe MLBA like if I recall.

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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    For now we can not accurately model every ancestry group contributing to Central and South Asians without more BA genomes from Afghanistan/Arachosia, Tajikistan and South Asia (no ancient Indian HG samples, no R1a-L657 samples from Central Asia). Especially genomes from BA Afghanistan and Arachosia would be very important to understand Proto-Indo-Aryan migrations (Indo-Aryans arrived rather via Arachosia in South Asia than via the Khyber pass). I for now would not make any definite claim about the genetic profile of early Indo-Aryans settling in South Asia. None of the steppe groups sampled so far matches Indo-Aryan R1a clades so they are unlikely direct ancestors of Indo-Aryans and at best indirect proxies for real Proto-Indo-Aryan ancestry. Indo-Aryans arriving in South Asia surely were rich in R1a-L657, R1a-Z2123, R1a-Y40, L, J2 and a mix of Sintashta-like, BMAC-like and WSHG-like ancestry but how exactly the ratio of these components was is impossible to say for now and probably was very different from clan to clan.
    Right I agree with this entire comment. But I just think it is strange to use nomad admixed Sogdian samples, from the historical period and with genuine east of the Altai ancestry as some sort of Indo-Aryan proxy ancestry when you have bronze age genomes in a much more considerable context which can be used too, even if these populations would not be the real relevant populations. Not to mention that we have no clue what they would be like genetically like you said.

    I mentioned the Kachkarshi sampled becayse I thought they were 80% Andronovo and 20% BMAC ish, but now that I checked it again I see that they weren't. But beyond that there are a bunch of steppe rich samples and outliers with steppe ancestry on the road towards South Asia that could give you a sketch of the genetic variations in those regions back in the day.

    The thing what we have to keep in mind as well is that not all the 'Central Asian' ancestry would be Indo-Aryan. It's not like the Central Asian ethnolinguistic entities ceased to exist the moment Indo-Iranians came through. So not only do you have diversity within ancient Indo-Aryan speaking populations, you still have plenty of Non Indo-Aryan gebetic influxes into South Asia to account for. Therefore I don't think you can substract IVC from Modern South Asians and go Aha! This must be the ancient Indo-Aryan genetic profile, because who knows how much of it could com from Iron age or historical periods?
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 11-30-2020 at 10:09 AM.

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  5. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    They are too late , and not surprisingly are rarely preferred, Srubnaya, or some much earlier Central Steppe sources are preferred.
    How are these samples considered too late to work as a proxy, but the Kangju genomes which postdate the migration events by more than a 1000 years aren't?

    If Western/Central Steppe is preferred that should mean that the genetic contribution was done by populations that weren't very admixed right? Because the only difference between west and east is like 10% Dali_eba like admixture and if western steppe is preferred that means that there is no need for extra wshg ancestry.

    Wouldn't Kangju be even less relevant then considering these samples were pretty mixed?

  6. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Right I agree with this entire comment. But I just think it is strange to use nomad admixed Sogdian samples, from the historical period and with genuine east of the Altai ancestry as some sort of Indo-Aryan proxy ancestry when you have bronze age genomes in a much more considerable context which can be used too, even if these populations would not be the real relevant populations. Not to mention that we have no clue what they would be like genetically like you said.

    I mentioned the Kachkarshi sampled becayse I thought they were 80% Andronovo and 20% BMAC ish, but now that I checked it again I see that they weren't. But beyond that there are a bunch of steppe rich samples and outliers with steppe ancestry on the road towards South Asia that could give you a sketch of the genetic variations in those regions back in the day.

    The thing what we have to keep in mind as well is that not all the 'Central Asian' ancestry would be Indo-Aryan. It's not like the Central Asian ethnolinguistic entities ceased to exist the moment Indo-Iranians came through. So not only do you have diversity within ancient Indo-Aryan speaking populations, you still have plenty of Non Indo-Aryan gebetic influxes into South Asia to account for. Therefore I don't think you can substract IVC from Modern South Asians and go Aha! This must be the ancient Indo-Aryan genetic profile, because who knows how much of it could com from Iron age or historical periods?
    The closest to an early Indo-Aryan steppe-rich sample is the female Loenbar_O from 1000 B.C which in terms of autosomal ancestry (especially BMAC/IVC ratio ) looks like some super-steppe shifted South Pashtun (minus the later West Iranic and Turkic geneflow some Pashtuns have). Pegasus posted this global25 model for her and compared it to Zabol Pashtuns.

    Target: Zabol_scaled
    Distance: 1.9684%
    27.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_11466
    27.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    23.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
    15.4 UZB_Sappali_Tepe2_BA
    6.2 NPL_Chokhopani_270


    Target: PAK_Loebanr_IA_o:I12138
    Distance: 1.9103%
    41.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
    30.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
    24.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_1466
    3.0 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
    Compared to modern pops she is closest to Pamiri,Kalash and Pashtuns.

    Distance to: PAK_Loebanr_IA_o:I12138
    0.04260293 Tajik_Ishkashim
    0.04716186 Pashtun_Kabul_AVG
    0.04766421 Tajik_Shugnan
    0.04777758 Pashtun_AFG_AVG
    0.05042473 Pashtun_Kandahar_AVG
    0.05249498 Kalash
    0.05340531 Tarkalani
    0.05454144 Tajik_Rushan
    0.05507857 Uthmankhel_AVG
    0.05507857 Uthmankhel
    0.05764429 Kho_Singanali
    0.06009687 Yusufzai_AVG
    0.06009687 Yusufzai
    0.06026345 Jatt_Pathak
    0.06197720 Ror
    0.06442063 Pashtun


    But like you correctly stated we don't know how many layers of Indo-Iranian steppe, Pre-Aryan Steppe, BMAC and IVC ancestry are hidden in here and modern day Indo-Aryans. There are so many confusing scenarios possible for now. Like early steppe Indo-Aryans being an earlier offshot from the Fatyanovo-Abashevo-Sintashta chain of cultures, which was less admixed with Poltavka and WSHG than Sintashta and later Andronovo. We see from Sintashta/Petrovka to Srubnaya a shift towards steppe EBA and decrease of EEF so even earlier Indo-Aryans could be even more EEF shifted. So the affinity to Steppe_EBA among Kalash and Indo-Aryans could just be an artifact of different layers of local and non-local pre-Aryan steppe ancestry (WSHG, Afanasievo,...). Or the opposite was true that early Indo-Aryans centered around Abashevo and the eastern half of the Fatyanovo-Abashevo chain of cultures picked more Steppe_EBA, WSHG and maybe even Maykop ancestry (see the weird Z93 sample from BA Romania with Maykop ancestry) than Proto-Iranics who were derived from Z93 groups centered closer to the western half of these forest-steppe chain of cultures.

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  8. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    How are these samples considered too late to work as a proxy, but the Kangju genomes which postdate the migration events by more than a 1000 years aren't?

    If Western/Central Steppe is preferred that should mean that the genetic contribution was done by populations that weren't very admixed right? Because the only difference between west and east is like 10% Dali_eba like admixture and if western steppe is preferred that means that there is no need for extra wshg ancestry.

    Wouldn't Kangju be even less relevant then considering these samples were pretty mixed?
    Your right, but the profile of one of them in particular works well as a proxy for now as its mixed , both WSHG and BMAC related in the same way that Saka outlier is similar to that Yaz sample (TKM IA). The Eneolithic Steppe component in Dali EBA/Kumsay EBA can also be attached to a more Western Steppe MLBA source so this is where everything gets speculative, or be absorbed by Turan populations earlier. For SPGT populations on qpAdm , Central Steppe MLBA works exceedingly well though I cannot say this is the case for every population. Their cases is interesting because its evident from their Z scores they need a good amount of MA1, WSHG and EHG related components.

    The only motivation to look to Western Steppe MLBA as a source is because , Central Steppe MLBA and their descendants have been well sampled and L657 and other related clades has been completely absent.
    Last edited by pegasus; 11-30-2020 at 05:17 PM.

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  10. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaazi View Post
    Hi just curious. No offence at all, are these "Kaami"s you're referring happen to be traditional blacksmiths, goldsmiths or artisan castes?
    Yes. Kaami usually means people who have very little or no land. They are skilled workers. They occupy the mid tier of society usually.

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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Yes. Kaami usually means people who have very little or no land. They are skilled workers. They occupy the mid tier of society usually.
    Wow. The similarity with the Nepali caste "Kaami" who are traditionally blacksmiths & goldsmiths.

    I guess the naming is more related to the hard work "Kaami people" do.
    Sanskrit: Karma (action) --> Kaam (work) --> "Kaami" imo.

    We've not seen a single Nepali Kaami caste kit yet.
    Last edited by kaazi; 12-14-2020 at 02:45 AM.

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  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaazi View Post
    Wow. The similarity with the Nepali caste "Kaami" who are traditionally blacksmiths & goldsmiths.

    I guess the naming is more related to the hard work "Kaami people" do.
    Sanskrit: Karma (action) --> Kaam (work) --> "Kaami" imo.

    We've not seen a single Nepali Kaami caste kit yet.
    Yes, most likely same origin. Kaami is someone who works with hands. A skilled worker/Tradesman. Except dalits like Chamar (Mochi) etc do not fall under Kaami from what I know.

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  16. #89
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    Wrong thread.

  17. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Yes, most likely same origin. Kaami is someone who works with hands. A skilled worker/Tradesman. Except dalits like Chamar (Mochi) etc do not fall under Kaami from what I know.
    Yeah. Chamars are leather workers and not grouped under Kaami. We've a separate Sarki caste (aka "Mijaar") who are Chamars.

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