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Thread: Greek Vlachs and other Northern Greek groups genetics

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    Greek Vlachs and other Northern Greek groups genetics

    I continue the conversation we began at Markos topic about the genetics of various Northern Greek groups (Vlachs,Arvanito-Vlachs,Karagkounides and Sarakatsani). I would like to see more data about the issue. What I have noticed is that the insufficient genetic results we have indicate that there is a population who clusters between Albanians and Gagauz, a paleo-Balkanic genetic profile with Slavic influence (as we know it exists in every Balkanic group) Maybe this description is not representative for some of these groups or some individuals who self-identify as Vlachs or Karagkounides. However it seems that there are people in Greece with such genetic profile.
    These two Thessalians results

    1
    Eurogenes K15:
    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 20.08
    2 Baltic 16.76
    3 West_Med 13.33
    4 West_Asian 13.25
    5 Atlantic 12.49
    6 North_Sea 11.85
    7 Eastern_Euro 6.76
    8 Red_Sea 3.55
    9 South_Asian 0.97
    10 Oceanian 0.67
    11 Amerindian 0.28

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Bulgarian 5.32
    2 Greek_Thessaly 6.79
    3 Greek 7.38
    4 Romanian 7.67
    5 Central_Greek 11.61
    6 Ashkenazi 11.79
    7 Serbian 12.05
    8 Italian_Abruzzo 12.31
    9 East_Sicilian 12.71
    10 Tuscan 13.54
    11 West_Sicilian 14.4
    12 South_Italian 15.03
    13 Moldavian 15.41
    14 North_Italian 16.94
    15 Croatian 17.56
    16 Hungarian 18.37
    17 Austrian 18.62
    18 Italian_Jewish 19.34
    19 Sephardic_Jewish 19.81
    20 Algerian_Jewish 20.51

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 73.4% Central_Greek + 26.6% Lithuanian @ 2.74
    2 87.7% Bulgarian + 12.3% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.98
    3 87.7% Bulgarian + 12.3% Iranian_Jewish @ 3
    4 87.4% Bulgarian + 12.6% Samaritan @ 3.05
    5 88% Bulgarian + 12% Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.05
    6 67.9% South_Italian + 32.1% Lithuanian @ 3.08
    7 86% Bulgarian + 14% Syrian @ 3.09
    8 88% Bulgarian + 12% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.1
    9 85.8% Bulgarian + 14.2% Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.13
    10 87.3% Bulgarian + 12.7% Assyrian @ 3.17
    11 85.2% Bulgarian + 14.8% Cyprian @ 3.27
    12 88% Bulgarian + 12% Palestinian @ 3.31
    13 87.6% Bulgarian + 12.4% Jordanian @ 3.34
    14 63.6% South_Italian + 36.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.36
    15 69.7% Central_Greek + 30.3% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.45
    16 71.7% Central_Greek + 28.3% Belorussian @ 3.48
    17 88.3% Bulgarian + 11.7% Georgian_Jewish @ 3.49
    18 58.4% Croatian + 41.6% Cyprian @ 3.53
    19 88.6% Bulgarian + 11.4% Bedouin @ 3.57
    20 91.7% Bulgarian + 8.3% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.59


    MDLP:
    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasian 36.76
    2 European_Hunters_Gatherers 25.04
    3 European_Early_Farmers 18.78
    4 Near_East 6.28
    5 North_African 3.78
    6 South_Central_Asian 3.05
    7 Ancestral_Altaic 2.79
    8 South_Indian 1.70


    Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
    23 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Gagauz_ @ 5.355055
    2 Greek_Thessaloniki_ @ 5.786290
    3 Bulgarian_ @ 6.046178
    4 Romanian_ @ 6.542105
    5 Greek_Thessaly_ @ 7.159259
    6 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 7.301517
    7 Macedonian_ @ 7.367906
    8 Albanian_Tirana_ @ 7.628107
    9 Greek_Northwest_ @ 8.037471
    10 Kosovar_ @ 8.178453
    11 Central_Greek_ @ 9.347348
    12 Greek_Macedonia_ @ 9.710055
    13 Montenegrian_ @ 9.903119
    14 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain_ @ 11.037085
    15 Greek_ @ 11.068690
    16 Serb_Serbia_ @ 12.265291
    17 Italian_North_ @ 12.404427
    18 Greek_Athens_ @ 12.715817
    19 Ashkenazi_ @ 12.738563
    20 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 13.597683

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Romanian_Jew_ +50% Serb_BH_ @ 2.196965

    2
    Eurogenes K15:
    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 20.78
    2 Atlantic 17.26
    3 Baltic 16.2
    4 West_Med 13.87
    5 West_Asian 12.52
    6 North_Sea 7.94
    7 Red_Sea 5.4
    8 Eastern_Euro 4.93
    9 Oceanian 0.56
    10 Siberian 0.55



    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Greek 6.49
    2 Bulgarian 7.6
    3 Greek_Thessaly 9.12
    4 Romanian 10.39
    5 Italian_Abruzzo 11.05
    6 Central_Greek 11.13
    7 East_Sicilian 11.75
    8 Ashkenazi 11.81
    9 Tuscan 12.07
    10 West_Sicilian 12.27
    11 South_Italian 13.71
    12 Serbian 14.39
    13 North_Italian 15.79
    14 Sephardic_Jewish 17.78
    15 Italian_Jewish 18
    16 Moldavian 18.61
    17 Algerian_Jewish 18.77
    18 Croatian 19.75
    19 Austrian 19.79
    20 Hungarian 21.05

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 78.3% Bulgarian + 21.7% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.94
    2 74.8% Bulgarian + 25.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 4.97
    3 68.3% South_Italian + 31.7% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.98
    4 72.2% South_Italian + 27.8% Lithuanian @ 5.03
    5 70.1% South_Italian + 29.9% Belorussian @ 5.1
    6 70.3% South_Italian + 29.7% Estonian_Polish @ 5.16
    7 84.2% Bulgarian + 15.8% Samaritan @ 5.27
    8 89.8% Greek + 10.2% Lithuanian @ 5.31
    9 76.8% Bulgarian + 23.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.32
    10 80.9% Bulgarian + 19.1% Cyprian @ 5.32
    11 70.1% Bulgarian + 29.9% South_Italian @ 5.36
    12 88.3% Greek + 11.7% Russian_Smolensk @ 5.37
    13 89.1% Greek + 10.9% Belorussian @ 5.38
    14 59.7% Greek + 40.3% Bulgarian @ 5.39
    15 84.8% Bulgarian + 15.2% Palestinian @ 5.43
    16 85.3% Bulgarian + 14.7% Lebanese_Christian @ 5.46
    17 89.5% Greek + 10.5% Estonian_Polish @ 5.47
    18 89% Bulgarian + 11% Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.48
    19 82.8% Bulgarian + 17.2% Lebanese_Muslim @ 5.51
    20 68.8% South_Italian + 31.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 5.51



    MDLP:
    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasian 36.12
    2 European_Hunters_Gatherers 23.31
    3 European_Early_Farmers 19.15
    4 Near_East 9.23
    5 South_Central_Asian 6.15
    6 North_African 2.07
    7 Melano_Polynesian 1.07


    Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
    23 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Greek_Thessaloniki_ @ 5.862896
    2 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 5.894323
    3 Greek_Thessaly_ @ 6.833071
    4 Greek_Northwest_ @ 6.833728
    5 Albanian_Tirana_ @ 7.517494
    6 Gagauz_ @ 7.626727
    7 Kosovar_ @ 8.186187
    8 Central_Greek_ @ 8.366130
    9 Bulgarian_ @ 8.612172
    10 Greek_Macedonia_ @ 8.907153
    11 Romanian_ @ 9.189235
    12 Greek_ @ 9.463307
    13 Macedonian_ @ 9.807001
    14 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain_ @ 10.138361
    15 Greek_Athens_ @ 11.372876
    16 Ashkenazi_ @ 11.569318
    17 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 12.393032
    18 Montenegrian_ @ 12.426967
    19 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 12.427217
    20 Italian_North_ @ 13.009654

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Cypriot_ +50% Slovenian_ @ 2.656055

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    The closest thing to Paleo-Balkan we have is BGR_IA, and this is how things look using a simulated Iron Age Anatolian.



    TUR_IA is created by subtracting from the current TUR_IA (which has central asian admixture) an amount of KAZ_Turk such that nmonte picks up no KAZ_Turk.

    Code:
    TUR_IA,0.0973681,0.14913579186602871,-0.030180066188197765,-0.0614805,-0.020144275917065392,-0.023734019138755981,0.0020064952153110048,0.0049705318979266352,-0.022989836523126,-0.00081083732057416413,0.0059423668261562998,0.002933161881977672,0.021966056618819778,0.010556866028708133,-0.0026083644338118022,-0.006180665869218502,0.010474465709728866,0.0090343524720893145,0.0046340303030303022,-0.003451952153110048,-0.0043201467304625199,-0.00037630223285486388,-0.0011853524720893136,0.00054981259968102077,-0.0049569409888357259
    Code:
    23abc_AncestryDNA_scaled,0.110408,0.151314,-0.0290383,-0.0507112,0.0018465,-0.0156179,-0.00305514,-0.00138456,-0.00899905,0.00911181,0.00243583,-0.00149867,-0.00431116,0.00344057,-0.00773606,0.00106072,0.00195576,0.00152026,0.00251396,-0.00550264,-0.00786113,-0.00197844,0.0025882,0.00168699,0.000957998

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    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    The closest thing to Paleo-Balkan we have is BGR_IA, and this is how things look using a simulated Iron Age Anatolian.



    TUR_IA is created by subtracting from the current TUR_IA (which has central asian admixture) an amount of KAZ_Turk such that nmonte picks up no KAZ_Turk.

    Code:
    TUR_IA,0.0973681,0.14913579186602871,-0.030180066188197765,-0.0614805,-0.020144275917065392,-0.023734019138755981,0.0020064952153110048,0.0049705318979266352,-0.022989836523126,-0.00081083732057416413,0.0059423668261562998,0.002933161881977672,0.021966056618819778,0.010556866028708133,-0.0026083644338118022,-0.006180665869218502,0.010474465709728866,0.0090343524720893145,0.0046340303030303022,-0.003451952153110048,-0.0043201467304625199,-0.00037630223285486388,-0.0011853524720893136,0.00054981259968102077,-0.0049569409888357259
    When I say Paleo-Balkan I have in mind not only BGR_IA but also some variations more Northern (closer to Scy300,305,192,197) or a bit more Southern (like DEU_MA_o). If we add the Slavic input we are very close to the genetic profile I described above.

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    Added a few more (including Gagauz and Thrace) with different proxies (DEU_MA_o = Balkan, HUN_Avar_Szolad = Slav).



    Gagauz are both 'north' shifted and Anatolian shifted at the same time, which is interesting.

    I'm not sure why Greek_Thrace distances are so high, is there some ancestral element missing? Or is there something wrong with the sample, as it seems it was removed from the G25 dataset.
    Code:
    23abc_AncestryDNA_scaled,0.110408,0.151314,-0.0290383,-0.0507112,0.0018465,-0.0156179,-0.00305514,-0.00138456,-0.00899905,0.00911181,0.00243583,-0.00149867,-0.00431116,0.00344057,-0.00773606,0.00106072,0.00195576,0.00152026,0.00251396,-0.00550264,-0.00786113,-0.00197844,0.0025882,0.00168699,0.000957998

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    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    I'm not sure why Greek_Thrace distances are so high, is there some ancestral element missing? Or is there something wrong with the sample, as it seems it was removed from the G25 dataset.
    That sample (my dad) was indeed removed due to high fits.

    It gets good fits with unscaled references, the only scaled calculator I've seen where it gets good fits is ph2ter's 2nd Mil. BCE:




    This is with unscaled for your relevant time period:

    55.8% Greek Central Macedonia + 44.2% Greek Trabzon @ 1.46

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    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    Added a few more (including Gagauz and Thrace) with different proxies (DEU_MA_o = Balkan, HUN_Avar_Szolad = Slav).



    Gagauz are both 'north' shifted and Anatolian shifted at the same time, which is interesting.

    I'm not sure why Greek_Thrace distances are so high, is there some ancestral element missing? Or is there something wrong with the sample, as it seems it was removed from the G25 dataset.
    The Gagauz are not north-shifted with respect to their ancestral geography (Dobruja, which is in what is today NE Bulgaria and SE Romania), they are in fact southern-shifted (you can call it Anatolian). But it is not a Turkic-admixed shift because they do not show more East Eurasian ancestry than the Bulgarians and Romanians. Maybe some Orthodox Anatolian Greeks who had switched to the Turkish language under Turkish rule played a role in their genesis? A theory worth examining.

    2020-07-17 19_17_47-VahaduoJS 19.11.2 - Comodo Dragon.png

    2020-07-17 19_18_28-VahaduoJS 19.11.2 - Comodo Dragon.png
    Hidden Content

    Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey
    mtDNA: X2e2a3; Drama, Greece
    Maternal Y-DNA: R1a>Y40>YP294>BY90442; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5o; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

    Ālim-i Rūm (Scholar of Hidden Content )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    The Gagauz are not north-shifted with respect to their ancestral geography (Dobruja, which is in what is today NE Bulgaria and SE Romania), they are in fact southern-shifted (you can call it Anatolian). But it is not a Turkic-admixed shift because they do not show more East Eurasian ancestry than the Bulgarians and Romanians. Maybe some Orthodox Anatolian Greeks who had switched to the Turkish language under Turkish rule played a role in their genesis? A theory worth examining.

    2020-07-17 19_17_47-VahaduoJS 19.11.2 - Comodo Dragon.png

    2020-07-17 19_18_28-VahaduoJS 19.11.2 - Comodo Dragon.png
    I have read that Gagauz people ethnogenesis took part when turkified Anatolians settled in Thrace area. This is quite possible if we check their genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xripkan View Post
    I have read that Gagauz people ethnogenesis took part when turkified Anatolians settled in Thrace area. This is quite possible if we check their genetics.
    But it seems "Turkified" in the sense of language shift only as those Anatolians who not only switched to Turkish but also converted to Islam all eventually mixed with the Turkic incomers to varying degrees except in the isolated and late conquered parts such as NE Anatolia.
    Hidden Content

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    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5o; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    But it seems "Turkified" in the sense of language shift only as those Anatolians who not only switched to Turkish but also converted to Islam all eventually mixed with the Turkic incomers to varying degrees except in the isolated and late conquered parts such as NE Anatolia.
    Yes, these settlements took place during 13th century and it seems Turkic input was minimal in this population.

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    Gagauz Turkic ancestors come from Central Asia and not East Asia as Seljuks, Seljuks were originally Aral Sea Turkmen from Central Asia founded by Tughril Beg (Rukn al-Dunya wa al-Din Abu Talib Muhammad Toghrul-Beg ibn Mikail) in year 1037. The Seljuk empire declined in year 1260 and was invaded by East Asian Mongols that divided the former Byzantine empire into emirates, one of those emirates "Ottomans" eventually conquered rest unifying the empire.

    Gagauz, linguistically were Turkified by Seljuk Turks because they are not Byzantine or Kievan they are a remnant of Bulgarian Empire that is also a culturally Turkic people (similar with modern Pomaks, Albanians), therefore culturally easily Turkified by Seljuk Turks. Albania is very old nation but before Albania there was Bulgarian Empire as one of major powers in region.

    Now, you search for population that centered between Albanian and Gagauz, and that is Pomaks from Macedonia. Why, because they are Byzantine, Bulgarian and Ottoman in their nature.

    With my own:

    Target: Zurakowski
    Distance: 2.0692% / 0.02069168 | ADC: 0.25x
    48.0 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_V14_2
    27.0 Albanian
    16.4 Gagauz
    8.6 MAR_LN

    Target: Zurakowski
    Distance: 2.0228% / 0.02022751 | ADC: 0.25x
    45.2 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_V14_2
    32.0 Albanian
    14.6 Tatar_Kazan
    8.2 MAR_LN

    Target: Zurakowski
    Distance: 1.9818% / 0.01981825 | ADC: 0.25x
    47.2 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_V14_2
    30.2 Albanian
    8.4 MAR_LN
    8.4 Nogai
    5.8 Tatar_Kazan

    Target: Zurakowski
    Distance: 1.6756% / 0.01675582 | ADC: 0.25x
    48.0 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_V14_2
    29.0 KAZ_KipchakA179
    14.8 Albanian
    8.2 MAR_LN

    Target: Zurakowski
    Distance: 1.5891% / 0.01589066 | ADC: 0.25x
    46.4 Turkish_Balkans:Turkish_Macedonia1
    41.8 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_V14_2
    9.0 KAZ_KipchakA179
    2.8 MAR_LN

    With 1x:

    Target: Zurakowski
    Distance: 1.8278% / 0.01827787 | ADC: 1x
    63.6 Turkish_Balkans:Turkish_Macedonia1
    30.0 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_V14_2
    6.4 Tatar_Kazan
    Last edited by Moldovlah; 07-19-2020 at 05:34 AM.

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