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Thread: Origin, Y-DNA of Sandzak Muslims

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by slavomir View Post
    Tutut, Macedonians from western Macedonia are low on genetic proto-Slavic admixture (20-30%), but their language is clearly Slavic, thus they are Slavs by definition.
    Mijaks and Brsjaks are two "tribes" of western Macedonians, basically a nickname for people living in certain villages. That's it.

    Y-dna of 126 western Macedonians (Polog, Southwest and Pelagonia regions)
    E 24.60%
    G 3.17%
    I1 0.79%
    I2 22.22%
    J1 6.35%
    J2 19.05%
    Q 0.79%
    R1a 7.14%
    R1b 11.90%
    T 3.97%



    Them being Turkic or Turkish is especially a wild idea, I don't know where that's coming from.

    Gorani and Torbeshi are Muslims from this region, they are probably mixed with Muslim Albanians (lack of religious barrier for intermarriage) and even less genetically Slavic.
    Turks from Macedonia are also that, plus some actual Turkish genetical influence.
    Wow that is a lot of J2!

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Wow that is a lot of J2!
    looks roughly 50/50 J2a/J2b2, and a bit of J2b1.

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  4. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    There is one thing I noticed also about Mijaks and the study of the Slavic speaking villages in Albania (Golo Brdo). The most popular haplogroups in Macedonia I2a Dinaric and E-V13 are almost completely missing. It is possible to disappear due to genetic drift, but must have been in the minority anyway. The plot in the study gives them as closest to the West Slavic and Slovenians, but this may be due to the large percent R1a-M458. Autosomally they could be closer to the South West Balkans.
    Yes, their plot near West Slavs was based only on general R-M458 frequency, but R-M458 is in low frequency in Slovenia, they are predominantly R-M558. In Bulgaria, contrary to other South Slavs who are predominantly R-M558, R-M458 frequency is high (11% with at least 50% share of R1a), and similarly is in North Macedonia (7%, cca. 45%). So can be expected to find local drifts in Bulgaria and North Macedonia like in those Mijaks. Autosomally most probably would not make any difference, North Macedonian Slavs plot too much south from the southernmost Southwestern Slavs (Serbs and Montenegrins). They are around Bulgarians (not Northwestern Bulgarians).

    Quote Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
    To be clear (correct me if im wrong), this study is only relevant to Galicnik Mijaks. Im not sure if they should or shouldnt be the standard of comparison for other Mijak settlments. So far, Mijaks from other villages havent really showed R1a in 23andme results, with the exception of the rare sample you noted in Bulgaria. There was a 23andme R1a-M417 sample from Galicnik according to a Serbian DNA project administrator. He likely was M458 if this study is any indication.

    The study mentioned their M458 in Galicnik was likely a founder effect. My guess is those 58% of brotherhoods belong to one shared subclade that bottlenecked. My guess is it is either going to be a basal variety of Y133367, or a pre-Y133367 split. My suspicion is due to The fact that this Albanian founder effect in L1029 is found in regions surrounding Mijak territories of lower Reka, and is found in Albanians of upper Reka. As for Golloborde, it is interestingly found only in the Albanian speaking villages. Whereas, the Slavic speaking villages had I-Y3120 and R-Z280. Overall J2b-L283, E-V13 were still more prevalent in the samples Rrenjet collected. R1b of course seemed mostly absent/low, in favor of R1a.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC72548/

    Alternatively, they could belong to A11460, which is also found in an Albanian across the border from Sllove. It's also found in a Macedonian though due to Cyrillic and being in my phone, I can't tell where he's from.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY202471/
    EBalkansR1aSubcladesMatches.png

    See article "...ethnic Macedonians from North Macedonia (14+19/204) from Purps et al. 2014 and Jankova et al. 2019 (23-27 Y-STR)". Nevgen predicts:

    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>FGC66331
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715 / YP1703 / YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> A11460
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715 / R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715 / R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> A11460
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP6048 / R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP593
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> A11460
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715

    R1a Z93>Z94> Z2123>Y934> Y7094
    R1a Z282>Z280>> CTS3402>>YP295> YP335
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP1034
    R1a Z282> Y17491
    R1a Z282>> CTS8816>>Y1392> FGC10360
    R1a Z282>> CTS8816>>Y1392> BY32477 / R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP343>> YP371
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP1034
    R1a Z282>Z280>>Y35>YP4278
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP1034
    R1a Z282>Z280>> CTS3402>>YP582 / R1a Z93>Z94> L657>Y5 (possibly Y907(439=11,389i=13,570=19))
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS3402>Y2613
    R1a Z282 > Z280 > S24902
    R1a Z282>Z280>> CTS3402>>YP953
    R1a Z93>Z94>S23592
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP1034
    R1a Z282>Z280> Z92>Y4459>> Y5570
    R1a Z282>Z280> Z92>Y4459> YP5520
    R1a Z93>Z94> BY32037

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  6. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhivet View Post
    Yes, their plot near West Slavs was based only on general R-M458 frequency, but R-M458 is in low frequency in Slovenia, they are predominantly R-M558. In Bulgaria, contrary to other South Slavs who are predominantly R-M558, R-M458 frequency is high (11% with at least 50% share of R1a), and similarly is in North Macedonia (7%, cca. 45%). So can be expected to find local drifts in Bulgaria and North Macedonia like in those Mijaks. Autosomally most probably would not make any difference, North Macedonian Slavs plot too much south from the southernmost Southwestern Slavs (Serbs and Montenegrins). They are around Bulgarians (not Northwestern Bulgarians).



    EBalkansR1aSubcladesMatches.png

    See article "...ethnic Macedonians from North Macedonia (14+19/204) from Purps et al. 2014 and Jankova et al. 2019 (23-27 Y-STR)". Nevgen predicts:

    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>FGC66331
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715 / YP1703 / YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> A11460
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715 / R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715 / R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> A11460
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP6048 / R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP593
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> A11460
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715

    R1a Z93>Z94> Z2123>Y934> Y7094
    R1a Z282>Z280>> CTS3402>>YP295> YP335
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP1034
    R1a Z282> Y17491
    R1a Z282>> CTS8816>>Y1392> FGC10360
    R1a Z282>> CTS8816>>Y1392> BY32477 / R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP343>> YP371
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP1034
    R1a Z282>Z280>>Y35>YP4278
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP1034
    R1a Z282>Z280>> CTS3402>>YP582 / R1a Z93>Z94> L657>Y5 (possibly Y907(439=11,389i=13,570=19))
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS3402>Y2613
    R1a Z282 > Z280 > S24902
    R1a Z282>Z280>> CTS3402>>YP953
    R1a Z93>Z94>S23592
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP1034
    R1a Z282>Z280> Z92>Y4459>> Y5570
    R1a Z282>Z280> Z92>Y4459> YP5520
    R1a Z93>Z94> BY32037
    As far as I'm aware, this study doesn't indicate from which areas this R1a was sampled. In the same study there were 2 Albanians belonging to R1029>Y133367. In Rrenjet, the more basal samples in this clade are Albanians from upper Reka. While the Mijaks from Galicnik could fall in any if those clades you listed above, I still think Y133367 or A11460 are more probable. YP417 would be my third guess.

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  8. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by slavomir View Post
    Tutut, Macedonians from western Macedonia are low on genetic proto-Slavic admixture (20-30%), but their language is clearly Slavic, thus they are Slavs by definition.
    Mijaks and Brsjaks are two "tribes" of western Macedonians, basically a nickname for people living in certain villages. That's it.

    Y-dna of 126 western Macedonians (Polog, Southwest and Pelagonia regions)
    E 24.60%
    G 3.17%
    I1 0.79%
    I2 22.22%
    J1 6.35%
    J2 19.05%
    Q 0.79%
    R1a 7.14%
    R1b 11.90%
    T 3.97%


    May I ask where did you take this data from. I think the Serbian project was working on testing 150 samples from different Macedonian regions. Are these from this study, or from different sources?

  9. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
    As far as I'm aware, this study doesn't indicate from which areas this R1a was sampled. In the same study there were 2 Albanians belonging to R1029>Y133367. In Rrenjet, the more basal samples in this clade are Albanians from upper Reka. While the Mijaks from Galicnik could fall in any if those clades you listed above, I still think Y133367 or A11460 are more probable. YP417 would be my third guess.
    According to YTree, R-FGC72548 has private mutations DYS389I=12, DYS389II=28, DYS576=17 while subclades, including Y133367, some additional.
    None of those 15 R-M458 or other haplotypes have such a combination (with or without DYS576=17 and so on). R-FGC72548 in general ethnic North Macedonians is absent.
    I would guess it would be, at least partly, R-L1029>YP417 and R-A11460.

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  11. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    May I ask where did you take this data from. I think the Serbian project was working on testing 150 samples from different Macedonian regions. Are these from this study, or from different sources?
    23andme, FTDNA, Serbian project (those who publicly tested earlier, not the 150 Macedonians project)

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  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by slavomir View Post
    looks roughly 50/50 J2a/J2b2, and a bit of J2b1.
    From what I've seen so far it doesn't look its 50/50.
    J-L283 is especially strong there and probably one can find the highest levels of it on the Balkans there after North Albania and Kosovo.

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhivet View Post
    According to YTree, R-FGC72548 has private mutations DYS389I=12, DYS389II=28, DYS576=17 while subclades, including Y133367, some additional.
    None of those 15 R-M458 or other haplotypes have such a combination (with or without DYS576=17 and so on). R-FGC72548 in general ethnic North Macedonians is absent.
    I would guess it would be, at least partly, R-L1029>YP417 and R-A11460.
    I get your point. However, with a lack of STRs from the Galicnik Mijaks in that study, and Y133367 and A11460 being found very close to Mijak territories and no YP417 found near there thus far, would indicate the former being more probable than the latter.

    If not, then Y133367 would truly be unique to Albanians, since this subclade is found in Albanians from areas surrounding Galicnik/lower Reka. Which is why I suspected the founder effect in Galicnik Mijaks to be a basal variety of this before it absorbed into Albanians with a parallel branch. If it turns out they're mostly just typical YP417 or A11460, that would be surprising.

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhivet View Post
    Yes, their plot near West Slavs was based only on general R-M458 frequency, but R-M458 is in low frequency in Slovenia, they are predominantly R-M558. In Bulgaria, contrary to other South Slavs who are predominantly R-M558, R-M458 frequency is high (11% with at least 50% share of R1a), and similarly is in North Macedonia (7%, cca. 45%). So can be expected to find local drifts in Bulgaria and North Macedonia like in those Mijaks. Autosomally most probably would not make any difference, North Macedonian Slavs plot too much south from the southernmost Southwestern Slavs (Serbs and Montenegrins). They are around Bulgarians (not Northwestern Bulgarians).



    EBalkansR1aSubcladesMatches.png

    See article "...ethnic Macedonians from North Macedonia (14+19/204) from Purps et al. 2014 and Jankova et al. 2019 (23-27 Y-STR)". Nevgen predicts:

    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>FGC66331
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715 / YP1703 / YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> A11460
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715 / R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715 / R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> A11460
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP6048 / R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP593
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
    R1a Z282>M458>> A11460
    R1a Z282>M458>> L1029> BY30715

    R1a Z93>Z94> Z2123>Y934> Y7094
    R1a Z282>Z280>> CTS3402>>YP295> YP335
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP1034
    R1a Z282> Y17491
    R1a Z282>> CTS8816>>Y1392> FGC10360
    R1a Z282>> CTS8816>>Y1392> BY32477 / R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP343>> YP371
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP1034
    R1a Z282>Z280>>Y35>YP4278
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP1034
    R1a Z282>Z280>> CTS3402>>YP582 / R1a Z93>Z94> L657>Y5 (possibly Y907(439=11,389i=13,570=19))
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS3402>Y2613
    R1a Z282 > Z280 > S24902
    R1a Z282>Z280>> CTS3402>>YP953
    R1a Z93>Z94>S23592
    R1a Z282>Z280> CTS1211>YP1034
    R1a Z282>Z280> Z92>Y4459>> Y5570
    R1a Z282>Z280> Z92>Y4459> YP5520
    R1a Z93>Z94> BY32037
    That's a fair amount of z93 there, proto thracian?

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