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Thread: Origin, Y-DNA of Sandzak Muslims

  1. #11
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    First of all we should define Sandzak. In modern times, we refer to it as one region because of historical and geopolitical issues but in terms of population movements, it is divided into two regions: a southern Sandzak (Gusinje, Plav, Tutin, Rozhaje, Novi Pazar) populated much more by an Albanian substratum than a Slavic one and a northern Sandzak (Prijepolje, Priboj, Pljevlja, Bijelo Polje) populated much more by a Slavic substratum than an Albanian one. The two regions "meet" in the Sjenica-Petnjica line. In turn, that meant that migrations from Montenegro tended to go to southern Sandzak if the population spoke Albanian and to northern Sandzak if the population spoke Serbo-Croatian. It also meant that people from Herzegovina that migrated there, tended to settle in the north and people from Albanian regions tended to settle in the south.

    We can pretty much map nowadays the route of every surname of the Sandzak and explain why it is E-V13, J2b, I2 etc. An example I like are the https://bosnjackidnk.com/porijeklo-p...vic-iz-trpezi/ Skenderovići from Petnjica (J2b-L283>Z597, typical of Albanian Malësor tribes). This is a brotherhood from Brskut, current Bratonozići, which then was part of Bukumiri . These people migrated as Orthodox in Petnjica (18th century) and became Muslim under influence from the Shabanagaj, a brotherhood from Gruemiri, who had converted to Islam about 50 years earlier (they were Catholics).
    Last edited by Bruzmi; 07-21-2020 at 12:33 AM.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleschreiber View Post
    First of all we should define Sandzak. In modern times, we refer to it as one region because of historical and geopolitical issues but in terms of population movements, it is divided into two regions: a southern Sandzak (Gusinje, Plav, Tutin, Rozhaje, Novi Pazar) populated much more by an Albanian substratum than a Slavic one and a northern Sandzak (Prijepolje, Priboj, Pljevlja, Bijelo Polje) populated much more by a Slavic substratum than an Albanian one. The two regions "meet" in the Sjenica-Petnjica line. In turn, that meant that migrations from Montenegro tended to go to southern Sandzak if the population spoke Albanian and to northern Sandzak if the population spoke Serbo-Croatian. It also meant that people from Herzegovina that migrated there, tended to settle in the north and people from Albanian regions tended to settle in the south.

    We can pretty much map nowadays the route of every surname of the Sandzak and explain why it is E-V13, J2b, I2 etc. An example I like are the https://bosnjackidnk.com/porijeklo-p...vic-iz-trpezi/ Skenderovići from Petnjica (J2b-L283>Z597, typical of Albanian Malësor tribes). This is a brotherhood from Brskut, current Bratonozići, which then was part of Bukumiri . These people migrated as Orthodox in Petnjica (18th century) and became Muslim under influence from the Shabanagaj, a brotherhood from Gruemiri, who had converted to Islam about 50 years earlier (they were Catholics).
    I believe it went a little bit differently. The southeastern counties are 80% muslim/Bosniak. The original Serbian population abandonned this area almost completely in the great migrations of Serbs(1683-1739), and it was then resettled by both Serbian speakers from Brda and Albanian speakers from Malësia, and in fact the Serbian Brda dialect became dominant among them, and the Albanian language died out except in a few villages. This is the "proper" Sandžak, and i had just this area in mind in my previous posts. You can see on the Bosniak DNA project map that the vast majortiy of tested Bosniaks are from this area. Many Bosniaks live in the other part too, but it seems they are less interested in DNA testing.

    The northwestern part is around 70/30% Serb/Bosniak, and unlike the southeastern part it never had a large population exchange. Both the Serbs and Bosniaks originate from the original medieval population. A lot of them claim roots from further south in Montenegro too, but not so much from the Brda region, but rather from the Old Herzegovina region of Montenegro. For example many Serbs and Bosniaks here claim origin from the Drobnjaci tribe, and they carry the haplogroup I-FGC33034 typical for this tribe.
    Last edited by slavomir; 07-21-2020 at 11:41 AM.

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  5. #13
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    The available data we have are 1)some historical accounts, although no proper modern bibliography exists for Sandzak b)anthroponymy and of course c)limited Y-DNA research in the last decade.

    1)The shift from Albanian to Serbo-Croatian in southern Sandzak is actually a modern phenomenon that started in the 20th century and expanded rapidly in the post--WWII era. Furthern north, up to WWII, there were bilingual areas up to Bijelo Polje. For example, Jusuf Mehonjić/Mehoniqi, a well-known rebel from Bijelo Polje was from a bilingual background and after incorporation of the area into Yugoslavia, he eventually settled in Albania.


    2)In terms of anthroponymy, I make this distinction between a northern and southern Sandzak because of the radically different anthroponymy between southern, central & northern Sandzak. I've uploaded (from forebears io) the most common surnames from Tutin (southern Sandzak, 94% Bosniak/Muslim) , Petnjica (central Sandzak, 95% Bosniak/Muslim) and Prijepolje (northern Sandzak, 45% Bosniak/Muslim). In Tutin, most surnames link back to an Albanian fis/tribe (Pepić the most common surname in Tutin- Pepaj until WWII - brotherhood is from Kelmendi, on the other side of the border in Kosovo the same brotherhood continues as Pepaj). Petnjica - just 45 miles (75 km) to the west of Tutin - is very different. There, surnames - in a 95% Muslim area - clearly show that many of these people were Orthodox at some point. We also have some surnames that indicate an origin from Albanian fis/tribes (Gašić < Gashi). In Prijepolje, the situation is even more different. There we find no surnames influenced by Albanian fis, but we find many surnames influenced by Montenegrin pleme/tribes (Rovčanin, Drobnjak).

    petnjica.pngPrijepolje.pngTutin.png


    Therefore, I argue that because of a different substratum in sub-regions of Sandzak, different populations tended to migrate to different areas. Kelmendi, Hoti etc. brotherhoods settled in areas like Tutin because they found themselves in a much more familiar environment there and Drobnjak, Rovčan etc. brotherhoods settled in areas like Prijepolje for exactly the same reasons.

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleschreiber View Post
    The available data we have are 1)some historical accounts, although no proper modern bibliography exists for Sandzak b)anthroponymy and of course c)limited Y-DNA research in the last decade.

    1)The shift from Albanian to Serbo-Croatian in southern Sandzak is actually a modern phenomenon that started in the 20th century and expanded rapidly in the post--WWII era. Furthern north, up to WWII, there were bilingual areas up to Bijelo Polje. For example, Jusuf Mehonjić/Mehoniqi, a well-known rebel from Bijelo Polje was from a bilingual background and after incorporation of the area into Yugoslavia, he eventually settled in Albania.

    2)In terms of anthroponymy, I make this distinction between a northern and southern Sandzak because of the radically different anthroponymy between southern, central & northern Sandzak. I've uploaded (from forebears io) the most common surnames from Tutin (southern Sandzak, 94% Bosniak/Muslim) , Petnjica (central Sandzak, 95% Bosniak/Muslim) and Prijepolje (northern Sandzak, 45% Bosniak/Muslim). In Tutin, most surnames link back to an Albanian fis/tribe (Pepić the most common surname in Tutin- Pepaj until WWII - brotherhood is from Kelmendi, on the other side of the border in Kosovo the same brotherhood continues as Pepaj). Petnjica - just 45 miles (75 km) to the west of Tutin - is very different. There, surnames - in a 95% Muslim area - clearly show that many of these people were Orthodox at some point. We also have some surnames that indicate an origin from Albanian fis/tribes (Gašić < Gashi). In Prijepolje, the situation is even more different. There we find no surnames influenced by Albanian fis, but we find many surnames influenced by Montenegrin pleme/tribes (Rovčanin, Drobnjak).

    petnjica.pngPrijepolje.pngTutin.png

    Therefore, I argue that because of a different substratum in sub-regions of Sandzak, different populations tended to migrate to different areas. Kelmendi, Hoti etc. brotherhoods settled in areas like Tutin because they found themselves in a much more familiar environment there and Drobnjak, Rovčan etc. brotherhoods settled in areas like Prijepolje for exactly the same reasons.
    i don't disagree with this, that's one big difference, but there is also another one, the Serbian/Montenegrin "element" of the northern and southern area is different. as i said in my previous post.

    look at the map of Serbian dialects here, and the border between two different dialects in Sandžak.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta%E...5%A1ka_dialect

  8. #15
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    Any updates on this thread?
    Last edited by excine; 03-16-2021 at 05:03 AM.

  9. #16
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    Not really related to the Y-DNA, but I felt like sharing it cause it's related to Sandzak Bosnians and quite interesting for me. I'm Bulgarian and my parents are from north-west and central-west Bulgaria. As far as I know all my most recent ancestors were also ethnically Bulgarian. The Vahaduo Eurogenes K13 shows me closer to Sandzak Bosnians than many Bulgarian regions. I also extended the max output number to 50 and it seems like my genetic distance to Sandzak Bosnians is 5.7, while to regular Bosnians it's 11.8. Here are the results :

    Distance to: test
    5.34762564 Bulgaria_Northwestern
    5.39930551 Serb_south
    5.47646784 Macedonian_North
    5.75853280 Bosniak_Sandzak
    5.84346644 Bulgaria_average
    5.85594570 Bulgaria_Southwestern
    5.87020443 Romania_Wallachia
    5.88887086 Bulgaria_Southcentral
    5.92610327 Romania_Oltenia
    5.93062391 Romania_Muntenia
    5.97943977 Bulgaria_Northcentral
    5.97975752 Romania_Dobruja
    6.08177606 Montenegrin
    6.25440645 Romania_average
    6.25906543 Romania_Banat
    6.34361096 Romania_Transylvania
    6.37651159 Romania_Moldavia_South
    6.45658579 Macedonian
    6.69958954 Macedonian_South
    6.83970029 Moldova_South
    6.98330151 Romania_Crisana
    7.04094454 Pomak_Bulgaria
    7.31199015 Bulgaria_Northeastern
    7.31730825 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
    7.85849858 Greek_Northern-Thrace
    7.90182257 Moldova_South_Gagauzia
    7.90750277 Pomak_Greece
    8.13834135 Romania_Maramures
    8.44451301 Serb_central
    8.55280656 Bulgaria_Southeastern
    8.78695055 Serb
    9.52342900 Albanian_Gheg
    9.93330257 Romania_Moldavia_North
    9.98012024 Albanian
    10.05257678 Torbesh_average
    10.05545623 Turk_Makedonya
    10.07398630 Serb_north
    10.55511369 Greek_Thessaly
    10.73394149 Moldova_average
    10.93728028 Moldova_Centre
    11.13163510 Albanian_Tosk
    11.25750861 Székely
    11.26534065 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    11.52465618 Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely
    11.69567869 Croat_South
    11.70965841 Greek_Northeast
    11.84460637 Turk_Deliorman
    11.85213905 Bosniak
    12.37432422 Greek
    12.37690591 Croat_West

  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taratorchec View Post
    Not really related to the Y-DNA, but I felt like sharing it cause it's related to Sandzak Bosnians and quite interesting for me. I'm Bulgarian and my parents are from north-west and central-west Bulgaria. As far as I know all my most recent ancestors were also ethnically Bulgarian. The Vahaduo Eurogenes K13 shows me closer to Sandzak Bosnians than many Bulgarian regions. I also extended the max output number to 50 and it seems like my genetic distance to Sandzak Bosnians is 5.7, while to regular Bosnians it's 11.8. Here are the results :

    Distance to: test
    5.34762564 Bulgaria_Northwestern
    5.39930551 Serb_south
    5.47646784 Macedonian_North
    5.75853280 Bosniak_Sandzak
    5.84346644 Bulgaria_average
    5.85594570 Bulgaria_Southwestern
    5.87020443 Romania_Wallachia
    5.88887086 Bulgaria_Southcentral
    5.92610327 Romania_Oltenia
    5.93062391 Romania_Muntenia
    5.97943977 Bulgaria_Northcentral
    5.97975752 Romania_Dobruja
    6.08177606 Montenegrin
    6.25440645 Romania_average
    6.25906543 Romania_Banat
    6.34361096 Romania_Transylvania
    6.37651159 Romania_Moldavia_South
    6.45658579 Macedonian
    6.69958954 Macedonian_South
    6.83970029 Moldova_South
    6.98330151 Romania_Crisana
    7.04094454 Pomak_Bulgaria
    7.31199015 Bulgaria_Northeastern
    7.31730825 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
    7.85849858 Greek_Northern-Thrace
    7.90182257 Moldova_South_Gagauzia
    7.90750277 Pomak_Greece
    8.13834135 Romania_Maramures
    8.44451301 Serb_central
    8.55280656 Bulgaria_Southeastern
    8.78695055 Serb
    9.52342900 Albanian_Gheg
    9.93330257 Romania_Moldavia_North
    9.98012024 Albanian
    10.05257678 Torbesh_average
    10.05545623 Turk_Makedonya
    10.07398630 Serb_north
    10.55511369 Greek_Thessaly
    10.73394149 Moldova_average
    10.93728028 Moldova_Centre
    11.13163510 Albanian_Tosk
    11.25750861 Székely
    11.26534065 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    11.52465618 Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely
    11.69567869 Croat_South
    11.70965841 Greek_Northeast
    11.84460637 Turk_Deliorman
    11.85213905 Bosniak
    12.37432422 Greek
    12.37690591 Croat_West
    I am prety much the same as you where are your parents from and are you in the Bulgarian project at FTDNA?

  11. #18
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    How come Albanians appear quite far in Vahadou? Is this normal?

  12. #19
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    aDNA Match (3rd)
    0.03353149 GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-FT19186
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    Albania United States of America
    7rWaOMp.png

    My results ^

  13. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    I am prety much the same as you where are your parents from and are you in the Bulgarian project at FTDNA?
    My father is from Knezha(Pleven region) and my mother is from Dragovishtitsa(Kyustendil region). How about you?

    I don't know about this Bulgarian project. What do I need to join? The testing company I used was LivingDNA, so I'm not sure if I can upload my results to FTDNA.

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