Page 20 of 21 FirstFirst ... 1018192021 LastLast
Results 191 to 200 of 210

Thread: Origin, Y-DNA of Sandzak Muslims

  1. #191
    Registered Users
    Posts
    388
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Bulgarian
    mtDNA (M)
    T2

    Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by Karagjoz View Post
    That's a fair amount of z93 there, proto thracian?
    The Z93 distribution among Bulgarians, which they may share with Macedonians is rather strange. People expect the steppe-Turkic branches, which may have be inherited form the proto-Bulgars, but the Bulgarian tested deeper rather go to the Middle East/Central European branches. Not sure if they are remnant form the Thracians, or arrived on the Balkans during Roman and Byzantine times.
    The predicted branches above from the Karachanak study are in fact included in the Underhill R1a study. According to this from 142/808 R1a Bulgarian, 6 belong to Z93 - 2 Z93*, 1 Z95 and 3 Z2125.
    AS several Z93 Bulgarians have Big Y, we can identify some branches.
    Z93* is most probably BY104501:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY104501/
    Z2125 is probably
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP5275/
    We are expecting another Big Y, who is for now proven Z2124+, Z2122-

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to eastara For This Useful Post:

     Karagjoz (01-26-2023),  Pribislav (01-26-2023)

  3. #192
    Registered Users
    Posts
    135
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    The Z93 distribution among Bulgarians, which they may share with Macedonians is rather strange. People expect the steppe-Turkic branches, which may have be inherited form the proto-Bulgars, but the Bulgarian tested deeper rather go to the Middle East/Central European branches. Not sure if they are remnant form the Thracians, or arrived on the Balkans during Roman and Byzantine times.
    The predicted branches above from the Karachanak study are in fact included in the Underhill R1a study. According to this from 142/808 R1a Bulgarian, 6 belong to Z93 - 2 Z93*, 1 Z95 and 3 Z2125.
    AS several Z93 Bulgarians have Big Y, we can identify some branches.
    Z93* is most probably BY104501:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY104501/
    Z2125 is probably
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP5275/
    We are expecting another Big Y, who is for now proven Z2124+, Z2122-
    Have you tested any individuals from Razgrad and Burgas?

  4. #193
    Registered Users
    Posts
    388
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Bulgarian
    mtDNA (M)
    T2

    Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
    Have you tested any individuals from Razgrad and Burgas?
    No, the 2 Z93 Big Y are in fact from North Western Bulgaria, there is one more from there tested with SNP Pack S23592+.
    However, the new Big Y we are expecting is from Preslav, this is the old Bulgarian capital in North Eastern Bulgaria. However this region was almost completely Turkified during Ottoman times, it started to repopulate with Bulgarians since 18c. only. They came from different places, some all the way from Greek Macedonia and Albania.

  5. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to eastara For This Useful Post:

     Coldmountains (01-26-2023),  excine (01-26-2023),  Technocrat (01-26-2023)

  6. #194
    Registered Users
    Posts
    825
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Balkan Slav
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-FT407280
    mtDNA (M)
    H4d

    I think I saw there was talk of Z93 on the Serb forum from the SE so our guy from near Dragoman is likely part of a larger brotherhood in the region, the one from the lowland NW is likely steppe like others there but not from the Bulgars.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to vasil For This Useful Post:

     eastara (01-26-2023)

  8. #195
    Moderator
    Posts
    3,208
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Afghan/Russian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Z93 (Indo-Aryan)
    mtDNA (M)
    H28 (Wielbark)

    Quote Originally Posted by Karagjoz View Post
    That's a fair amount of z93 there, proto thracian?
    These are common West Asian and Steppe IA Z93 clades so unlikely related to Thracians

    R1a Z93>Z94> Z2123>Y934> Y7094 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3700 ybp. Common in the Ural region, Caucasus and even found in Pakistan/Afghanistan+China

    R1a Z93>Z94>S23592 formed 4400 ybp, TMRCA 4400 ybp. Very common for Saka and Steppe_IA people. Probably one if not the most frequent Y-DNA marker among them. Today mostly found in Turkic people and Kyrgyzstan

    R1a Z93>Z94> BY32037 Under F1417 (formed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybp) today most common among Bashkirs, Uyghurs and Tatars. It was also found in Kyrgyzstan IA

  9. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Coldmountains For This Useful Post:

     CopperAxe (01-26-2023),  eastara (01-26-2023),  excine (01-26-2023),  jamtastic (01-27-2023)

  10. #196
    Registered Users
    Posts
    825
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Balkan Slav
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-FT407280
    mtDNA (M)
    H4d

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    These are common West Asian and Steppe IA Z93 clades so unlikely related to Thracians

    R1a Z93>Z94> Z2123>Y934> Y7094 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3700 ybp. Common in the Ural region, Caucasus and even found in Pakistan/Afghanistan+China

    R1a Z93>Z94>S23592 formed 4400 ybp, TMRCA 4400 ybp. Very common for Saka and Steppe_IA people. Probably one if not the most frequent Y-DNA marker among them. Today mostly found in Turkic people and Kyrgyzstan

    R1a Z93>Z94> BY32037 Under F1417 (formed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybp) today most common among Bashkirs, Uyghurs and Tatars. It was also found in Kyrgyzstan IA
    The BY104501 guy separated from the Arabs with obvious Iranian ancestry around 1700bc so could be anything from Srubna onwards like Thracian or Scythian or East Med or even something in the Late Roman/Early Medieval period. I would just call that branch an unknown for now.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to vasil For This Useful Post:

     eastara (01-26-2023)

  12. #197
    Registered Users
    Posts
    171
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    southwest Slav
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-M67

    Quote Originally Posted by Karagjoz View Post
    That's a fair amount of z93 there, proto thracian?
    you should be careful when trusting various sources.

    among ~750 Bulgarians who tested FTDNA, only 4 are Z93.
    among 350 Macedonians and 8000 Serbs who did an actual DNA test, not a single one is Z93.

    that table was made by inputting 17 str haplotypes into Nevgen, and is unreliable.

    these are the Z93 subclades found among Bulgarians who actually tested:
    R-S23592
    R-YP5275
    R-BY104501
    R-Z2124
    Last edited by slavomir; 01-26-2023 at 10:42 AM.

  13. #198
    Registered Users
    Posts
    47

    Quote Originally Posted by slavomir View Post
    you should be careful when trusting various sources.

    among ~750 Bulgarians who tested FTDNA, only 4 are Z93.
    among 350 Macedonians and 8000 Serbs who did an actual DNA test, not a single one is Z93.

    that table was made by inputting 17 str haplotypes into Nevgen, and is unreliable.

    these are the Z93 subclades found among Bulgarians who actually tested:
    R-S23592
    R-YP5275
    R-BY104501
    R-Z2124
    Nevgen is not unreliable, Macedonians are on 23 and 21 markers. Definetly there's some Z93, but in traces, nothing significant generally. FTDNA or other genetic geneaological databases have often biased samples. They are less representative of the frequency and variance of the general population.

  14. #199
    Registered Users
    Posts
    171
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    southwest Slav
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-M67

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhivet View Post
    Nevgen is not unreliable, Macedonians are on 23 and 21 markers. Definetly there's some Z93, but in traces, nothing significant generally. FTDNA or other genetic geneaological databases have often biased samples. They are less representative of the frequency and variance of the general population.
    That's still not nearly enough markers. it says on the nevgen website 67 markers are needed for subclade prediction, and even then it's sometimes wrong.

  15. #200
    Registered Users
    Posts
    171
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    southwest Slav
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-M67

    There actually are methods to predict subclades even from 17 markers, used by DNA project admins.
    It's not Nevgen, but other methods which were developed on old mailing lists 15 years ago. Nobody is willing to share them anymore.

Page 20 of 21 FirstFirst ... 1018192021 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. why are there no muslims in nepal
    By Censored in forum Southern
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 01-31-2020, 12:04 AM
  2. Replies: 85
    Last Post: 12-07-2019, 02:52 AM
  3. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 02-25-2019, 08:52 AM
  4. Norman/French/Crusader genes in Lebanese Muslims?
    By Sikeliot in forum Open-Source Projects
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-10-2016, 02:17 AM
  5. Replies: 33
    Last Post: 08-14-2014, 07:30 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •