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Thread: Origin, Y-DNA of Sandzak Muslims

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taratorchec View Post
    My father is from Knezha(Pleven region) and my mother is from Dragovishtitsa(Kyustendil region). How about you?

    I don't know about this Bulgarian project. What do I need to join? The testing company I used was LivingDNA, so I'm not sure if I can upload my results to FTDNA.
    My father is from Osikovitsa and Vidrare just west of Teteven and my mother is from Borovtsi/Berkovitsa and Botunja/Krivodol if you tested at LivingDNA i dont think you can transfer to FTDNA. My Gedmatch is UT8918045 what is yours and what are your haplgroups?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    My father is from Osikovitsa and Vidrare just west of Teteven and my mother is from Borovtsi/Berkovitsa and Botunja/Krivodol if you tested at LivingDNA i dont think you can transfer to FTDNA. My Gedmatch is UT8918045 what is yours and what are your haplgroups?
    Nice. That's relatively close geographically.

    My GEDmatch ID is CK8565675. Surprisingly(at least for me) my YDNA haplogroup is R1b-P312. My MtDNA haplogroup is H1b1a.

    Are there some other free calculators that I can use my results on, except GEDmatch and Vahaduo?

    By the way, sorry for the off topic guys. Tried to send a PM, but I don't have the required posts in the forum in order to do that.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taratorchec View Post
    Nice. That's relatively close geographically.

    My GEDmatch ID is CK8565675. Surprisingly(at least for me) my YDNA haplogroup is R1b-P312. My MtDNA haplogroup is H1b1a.

    Are there some other free calculators that I can use my results on, except GEDmatch and Vahaduo?

    By the way, sorry for the off topic guys. Tried to send a PM, but I don't have the required posts in the forum in order to do that.
    Interesting is your Ydna from Kneza or is it from one of the surounding villages? If you want you can get your G25 coordinates from Davidski for 12$ you just paypal him the money and send him your raw file at [email protected]
    http://bga101.blogspot.com/2017/10/g...ore-to-be.html

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    My father is from Osikovitsa and Vidrare just west of Teteven and my mother is from Borovtsi/Berkovitsa and Botunja/Krivodol if you tested at LivingDNA i dont think you can transfer to FTDNA. My Gedmatch is UT8918045 what is yours and what are your haplgroups?
    I believed the Bulgars had some pretty long control of Sandzak back then, any toponyms reflect that? Isn't Pester seen in Bulgaria as well?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    Interesting is your Ydna from Kneza or is it from one of the surounding villages? If you want you can get your G25 coordinates from Davidski for 12$ you just paypal him the money and send him your raw file at [email protected]
    http://bga101.blogspot.com/2017/10/g...ore-to-be.html
    As far as I know, the families of my grandma and grandpa from my father's line are both Knezha natives, but can't say with certainty about more distant generations.

    I'll check out the G25 thingy in the future. Thanks for suggesting

    Excine, I'm not sure about it being connected, but Pester sounds to me like "peshtera" which means cave in Bulgarian. There is also a city called Peshtera in the Rhodopes.

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     excine (03-18-2021)

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taratorchec View Post
    Excine, I'm not sure about it being connected, but Pester sounds to me like "peshtera" which means cave in Bulgarian. There is also a city called Peshtera in the Rhodopes.
    They are indeed both from the same Proto-Slavic root of *peťera meaning "cave". It seems to me that the toponym Pešter best correlates to the Old Church Slavonic form which is пещера (peštera) but without the suffix -a.

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     excine (03-19-2021),  XXD (03-19-2021)

  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    They are indeed both from the same Proto-Slavic root of *peťera meaning "cave". It seems to me that the toponym Pešter best correlates to the Old Church Slavonic form which is пещера (peštera) but without the suffix -a.
    Thank God it's not Bulgarian.

  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    They are indeed both from the same Proto-Slavic root of *peťera meaning "cave". It seems to me that the toponym Pešter best correlates to the Old Church Slavonic form which is пещера (peštera) but without the suffix -a.
    Pešter highlands derives its name from an old large village it used to exist there in 16th century and earlier. It was called "Peštera". Serb term is "pećina" reflecting the typical Serb change into tj and later ć. In this instance it should be Bulgarian, because there are multiple Peštera villages in Bulgaria and also there are multiple other Bulgarian toponyms nearby, most of them already being connected to my genetic cluster (which is found also in Bulgaria at 800-1000 TMRCA). And there have also been historical events involving this area and arrivals of Bulgarians in Medieval times.

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     Vokil (03-23-2021)

  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taratorchec View Post
    Thank God it's not Bulgarian.
    But it is. My ancestors gave it that name. There are few other nearby settlements of even clearer Bulgarian extraction. Where people genetically very close to me have been found.
    These include
    Raždaginja - again giving birth in Bulgarian is raždane as opposed to Serbian rađanje, Bulgarian жд vs Serbian ђ
    Boroštica - similarly Bulgarian št/щ vs Serbian ć , analogous Bulgarian village

    Next to Raždaginja there is Zaječiće, derived from zajec or zaek, Torlakian or Bulgarian word for hare. Serbian is zec.
    In late 16th century grandson of Ottoman magnate Ahmed-bey Silahdar (who actually built the first mosque in Sandzak) took the voynuk bashtina's from voynuks/christian sipahis of knez Ognan/his son in Zaječiće. It seems he almost 500 years ago used still this word as this village was new. And also my surname occurs in his community (a reason I connected myself to this already almost 10 years ago). That these two are connected can be seen in the fact that other two knezes of this family came from Korutan and Baljen villages, other two villages where Ahmed-Bey had his own possessions, and he resided in Korutan/Janča. Ahmed-bey's other direct possession was practically only my own village to the South which was uninhabited until the late 16th century. The fact that my own family were wealthy ktetors of Nikoljac Monastery in early 17th century, and that this village was direct property of the monastery just complement each other. And ofc Ahmed-Bey gave some benefits to other monasteries as well. So obviously just the Christian sipahis from the Pešter highalnds that were in some sort of relation to him could have settled the land.

    Also nearby, village Boljare, which ofc refers to Bolyars. Such villages occur only in Bulgaria.

    As I've said Pešter christian sipahis other than from Zaječiće next to Raždaginja had timar in Baljen. Family tested very close to me from Raždaginja surname is without any doubt related to the Baljen, or more precisely what used to belong to the knez from Baljen, the Čarovina . This where we exit the Slavic Bulgarian realm.

    The 15th century ancestor of these sipahis was certain Huban. Which is why I have it as my nick here. Derived of "ghob" from Codex Cumanicus and related to Mongol "ghobay". There was a bolyar Huban on Boril's court in early 13th century. No other person in history in the Western Balkans had this name.

    Baljen's old name was "Balneva", a possessive added to the personal name Balin. This name was common in 15th, 16th century Bulgaria, as well as similar names. Authors differ on this name:
    Serbs say it comes from Latin "Valens"
    Macedonians say its related to "bal" in Decebal
    Romanians say it's Slavic, related to, "white"
    Ukrainians say it's Turkic
    Bulgarian sources consider it either Slavic Bulgarian or Bulgar.

    Some similar names that occur were Baluka (which should be Turkic), also there was a Cuman city called Balin. In any case this name is very foreign to the area.

    Čarovina relates to well... So other than me there are two families from Pešter closely related to me. The only other named family closely related to us at around 800-1000 TMRCA is from Pečenjevce . Practically part of it is Čekmin, while nearby there is also village Čagrovac. This is sufficient grounds to say that medieval Berendei Chagrovich clan did settle there (and Berendei were of Pecheneg origin). It is pronounced "Čahrovič", Serbs hate the "h" sound generally so usually it gets lost..

    In 1253 Bulgarian or per some sources Bulgarian-Cuman army did visit this area, and there are other traces of them. Monastery Kumanica. Mountain Žilindar which is situated immediately above the Boroštica where I have a relative 700-800 years away from me.

    I do have relatives in Bulgaria, Sofiya but it's from a study. I guess certain specific areas must be tested to find these. And Bulgarians tend to be very heterogenous and not have too many bottleneck effect people that pop out easily like in the likes of Serbs or Albanians.

    None of this has much relation to Bosniaks now living in all these villages. Most of them arrived 300 or less years ago. After the battle of Wiena in 1683, most natives left the area (like these families related to me also), and there were no more Christian sipahis or the old Ottoman elite so the newcomers from Malesia and Brda flooded the area.

    The fact that in 1711 we find some Kelmendi in a village where Ahmed-Bey's family had possessions is a testament to this takeover. Btw Ahmed-bey because he and his descendants had relations to these voynuks, i.e. my cluster could have been easily my own genetic cousin. Chances are high for that.

    The reason you show autosomal similarities to some (I suppose) Eastern Sandzak Bosniaks might be that actually they being a mixture of Montenegrin-like and Albanian-like do tend to cluster with Bulgarians roughly speaking. Those in the Western parts of Sandžak show much more Slavic admixture, and ofc almost no typical Albanian lines the Eastern part is full of.


    PS. Some Albanians patheticly many times tried to indicate that my origin is Albanian too. As all "E-V13 are Albanian" supposedly. I'd have no problem with that but I have no Albanian relatives closer than Early Iron Age and these descended to Albania from Carpathians at some point in time. And looking at these few people who were tested and where they are from one can see why is that so. If I only had no history or closer genetic matches, but I do have both.
    Last edited by Huban; 03-23-2021 at 04:20 PM.

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  14. #30
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    Huban, actually yes, there occured a important ethnic shift in the Old Raška \ Sandžak region after y. 1689, but in the basis of the Defters of Hercegovina: "Poimenični popis sandžaka vilajeta hercegovina 1477 godine" and that of Prizren that included big part of today Sanjak area: "Opširni popis prizrenskog sandžaka iz 1571. godine" there were a important presence of non-slavic people: Vlachs, also few cases of Albanians. Frankly i haven't notice any Cuman or other Turkic-like people in this Defters, so i suggest that you should search your E-V13 among those paleo-balkan people (Vlachs & Albanians) that lived in Old Raška prior the arrival of the Malisori and Brdjanin!!

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