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Thread: Pashtun ancestry?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well Pashtuns generally overlap with NW South Asians especially when they show a very significant Gandhara_IA substrate like northern Pashtuns who seem to be a mix of something 40-60 Kandahari-like (Proto-Pashtuns originate in Arachosia/North Baluchistan) and 40-60 Gandhara_IA-like. But some outliners especially in the Pashtun average here are extremely eastern shifted so much that they are even more eastern than some Gandhara_IA samples (talking about the HGDP samples). So the Pashtun average here is not very representative. The Utmankhel, Tarkalani and Yusufzai average is more representative and similar/identical to Pashtuns in east Afghanistan. But Yusufzai already represent the most eastern and southasian shifted cluster of Pashtuns which has a very rich local genetic substrate. So if someone has ancestry from such kind of Pashtuns it will be hard to differentiate it from other NW South Asians in the region
    The diversity among the Pashtun autosomal dna indicates that their ethnogenesis is not very old, probably 600 to 900 years, at the most. If a historical people ever existed 2000 ybp or still further back, it has to be the ones in Paktya/Paktia provinces of what is now Afghanistan today, the river hymn of Rig Ved mentions a tribe called Pakthasa, and as it is difficult to locate their urheimat, the regions known by what would have been the root of their identity is most likely where they originally lived. However they would eventually receive a diversity of inputs to grow into what we came to know as the Pashtuns a few hundred years ago, and they continue to be as diverse as can be, from Bengal to Northern and Western Afghanistan.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The problem with this approach is that you need a fairly close yDNA match to be sure. But less people do NGS haplogroup and STRs than autosomal tests. So its a viable strategy if there are male descendents, but I would bet minimum as much on cousin hits by segment sharing.
    It would give more clarity than autosomal testing for sure

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    There are some Y-dna clades very typical and in some cases unique for Pashtuns. They make more of 50% of Pashtun Y-dna but many Pashtun clades were either not found yet (lack of deeper y-dna testing) or overlap with neighboring populations quite much.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1532/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1127/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y61970/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-M283/
    https://yfull.com/tree/Q-BZ528/

    Are there any Y-DNA clades which are specific to certain Pashtun clans?.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    It would give more clarity than autosomal testing for sure
    While a great-great grandfather is not that close, its close enough for sharing complete segments. But for a clear result a fairly close relative with a completely Pashtu background would be needed. This is of course nothing you can expect, but only hope for. Yet the same is true for yDNA, since a generic "Indo-Pakistan-Afghani" result without a close match wouldn't help there either. So its possible to recommend both paths and he can just hope for a hit this or that way. Nothing guaranteed.

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    I'm a distant 23andMe match with a UP Pashtun whose ancestors moved from Miranshah, NWFP to Lucknow, UP.

    I think many families likely do have credible claims of being a descendant of a Pashtun solider, and may even consider him to be a MENA ancestor.

    I think similar to how Iranians were in civilian bureaucracy, many Pashtuns were soldiers for Muslim princely states.

    The Nawabs of Bhopal were started by an Orakzai Pashtun who was originally from the Pakistan/Afghanistan border. Imran Khan is a Niazi Pashtun whose family has been living in Punjab for a long time.

    With current technology it's exceedingly difficult to prove without showing significant Central Asian ancestry on 23andMe or having full Pashtun relative matches. Maybe a high Caucasian % on Harappa?

    The dominant Pashtun yDNA is R1a which doesn't prove anything either way, and you'll have to do some digging with something like BigY.

    Edit: Missed that the Nawabs of Rampur were Pashtun also.
    Last edited by subzero85; 07-23-2020 at 03:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Yes a direct male descendant of this Pashtun ancestor could help narrow down possibilities as autosomally it may be difficult to prove.
    The only direct male descendant of his I know of, and the one who wrote that excerpt, is Salman Haidar and his son who I don't have much contact with.

    Quote Originally Posted by subzero85 View Post
    I'm a distant 23andMe match with a UP Pashtun whose ancestors moved from Miranshah, NWFP to Lucknow, UP.

    I think many families likely do have credible claims of being a descendant of a Pashtun solider, and may even consider him to be a MENA ancestor.

    I think similar to how Iranians were in civilian bureaucracy, many Pashtuns were soldiers for Muslim princely states.

    The Nawabs of Bhopal were started by an Orakzai Pashtun who was originally from the Pakistan/Afghanistan border. Imran Khan is a Niazi Pashtun whose family has been living in Punjab for a long time.

    With current technology it's exceedingly difficult to prove without showing significant Central Asian ancestry on 23andMe or having full Pashtun relative matches. The dominant Pashtun yDNA is R1a which doesn't prove anything either way, and you'll have to do some digging with something like BigY.
    One of my cousins who I share another great-great grandfather with scores 7% Central Asian. His yDNA is R-L657. Our common ancestor who he is a direct male descendent of also claimed to be descended from Pashtuns.

    I have another distant Afghan match (0.3% DNA shared, 1 segment) with who I share yDNA R-Z93 with however my direct paternal ancestors were not Pashtun as far as I know.
    Last edited by pakistani; 07-23-2020 at 02:51 PM.

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    It would give more clarity than autosomal testing for sure




    Are there any Y-DNA clades which are specific to certain Pashtun clans?.
    To some extent yes. Sadozai are mainly L1c https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y61970/, Afridi and Utmankhel mainly or very rich in G-M283,Yusufzai and north Pashtuns seem to be rich in Q1b and especially R1a-YP413. But overall Pashtun Y-dna is rather similar and most of these clades exist in most if not all Pashtun tribes. Later founder effects caused some tribes to be dominated by specific R1a, L1c,G2,... clades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pakistani View Post
    The only direct male descendant of his I know of, and the one who wrote that excerpt, is Salman Haidar and his son who I don't have much contact with.



    One of my cousins who I share another great-great grandfather with is on 23andMe and scores 7% Central Asian. Our common ancestor there also claimed to be descended from Pashtuns.

    I have another distant Afghan match (0.3% DNA shared, 1 segment) with who I share yDNA R-Z93 with however my direct paternal ancestors were not Pashtun as far as I know.
    R1a-Z93 is probably 6000-7000 years old and one of the the most frequent markers in the region among both Pashtuns and non-Pashtuns so only deeper testing can tell you if your R1a clade is from Pashtuns. I also suspect that many Pathans in India have ancestry from non-Pashtun Central Asians but later got lumped together with people having Pashtun ancestry.

    L657 is present among 10% of Pashtuns ( my Afghan Pashtun line is L657 too) but it is also very typical for South Asia so like for like for Z93 deeper testing would be needed here. But even then it would be very hard to differentitate Pashtun L657 from Indian L657. Pashtun L657 seems to be mainly Y6 but untill yet i seem to be only Pashtun Y6 carrier who deeper tested his y-dna and i turned out to be Y920*. But this clade has a TMRCA of 4000 ybp so i or other Pashtun Y6 carriers need to do some more deeper testing to find Pashtun specific Y6 clades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pakistani View Post
    My great great grandfather from UP claimed that he and his wife were both full Pashtun, which may be a little dubious:



    Would I be able to determine the truth to that by looking at some of my test results? 23andMe, and HarappaWorld:

     
    Population %:

    1 S-Indian 35.31
    2 Baloch 32.74
    3 NE-Euro 8.71
    4 Caucasian 6.9
    5 Mediterranean 6.11
    6 SW-Asian 3.83
    7 NE-Asian 2.83
    8 Siberian 2.59
    9 Beringian 0.74
    10 Papuan 0.11
    11 San 0.08
    12 American 0.04


    Single Population Sharing:

    1 up-muslim (harappa) 5.87
    2 nepalese-a (xing) 8.51
    3 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 8.61
    4 up-brahmin (harappa) 8.89
    5 punjabi (harappa) 9.18
    6 bihari-muslim (harappa) 9.34
    7 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 9.4
    8 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 9.65
    9 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 9.73
    10 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 9.89
    11 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 9.95
    12 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 10.14
    13 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 10.36
    14 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 10.38
    15 vaish (reich) 10.6
    16 kashmiri (harappa) 10.83
    17 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 11.59
    18 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 11.64
    19 cochin-jew (behar) 11.8
    20 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 11.82


    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    1 88.9% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11.1% morocco-n (henn2012) @ 4.16
    2 88.5% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11.5% algeria (henn2012) @ 4.21
    3 82.8% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 17.2% morocco-jew (behar) @ 4.24
    4 89.5% up-brahmin (harappa) + 10.5% tunisia (henn2012) @ 4.28
    5 89% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11% mozabite (hgdp) @ 4.3
    6 88.4% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11.6% libya (henn2012) @ 4.33
    7 89.2% up-brahmin (harappa) + 10.8% saharawi (henn2012) @ 4.36
    8 88.7% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11.3% moroccan (behar) @ 4.39
    9 80.7% gujarati (harappa) + 19.3% ashkenazi (harappa) @ 4.4
    10 82.5% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 17.5% ashkenazy-jew (behar) @ 4.41
    11 81.3% gujarati (harappa) + 18.7% tuscan (1000genomes) @ 4.43
    12 82.3% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 17.7% morocco-jew (behar) @ 4.44
    13 80.6% gujarati (harappa) + 19.4% ashkenazy-jew (behar) @ 4.44
    14 81.9% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 18.1% ashkenazy-jew (behar) @ 4.45
    15 82.1% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 17.9% ashkenazi (harappa) @ 4.45
    16 83% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 17% sephardic-jew (behar) @ 4.46
    17 78.4% kerala-nair (harappa) + 21.6% romanian-a (behar) @ 4.49
    18 87.6% bengali-brahmin (harappa) + 12.4% morocco-jew (behar) @ 4.5
    19 63.3% dharkar (metspalu) + 36.7% tajik (yunusbayev) @ 4.52
    20 84.5% vaish (reich) + 15.5% morocco-jew (behar) @ 4.58


    G25 Modern Averages:

     
    Target: pakistani_scaled
    Distance: 1.4219% / 0.01421929

    37.2 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
    15.6 Gujar_India
    13.4 Jatt_Pathak
    8.4 Gupta
    7.8 Yemenite_Mahra
    5.0 Shor_Khakassia
    4.8 Brahui
    2.2 Japanese
    2.0 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu
    1.8 Basque_Spanish
    1.0 Kanjar
    0.4 Kosipe
    0.4 Madiga

    Target: pakistani_scaled
    Distance: 1.8600% / 0.01860045 | ADC: 0.25x

    35.8 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
    21.0 Burusho
    19.2 Brahmin_West_Bengal
    6.6 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
    6.2 Yemenite_Mahra
    4.0 Gujar_India
    3.6 Brahmin_Gujarat
    3.6 Jatt_Pathak

    Distance to: pakistani_scaled

    0.04037301 Brahmin_Gujarat
    0.04340859 Gujar_India
    0.04834304 Kashmiri_Pandit
    0.05010389 Kohistani
    0.05061369 Burusho
    0.05138342 Khatri
    0.05349074 Gujar_Pakistan
    0.05392985 Sindhi
    0.05546853 Punjabi_Jatt
    0.05554464 Brahmin_West_Bengal
    0.05610852 Kshatriya
    0.05852728 Kamboj
    0.06010509 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
    0.06299978 Iyer
    0.06369006 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu
    0.06630154 Pashtun
    0.06864628 Ror
    0.07002881 Jatt_Pathak
    0.07072149 Yusufzai
    0.07675920 Kho_Singanali
    0.07786632 Uthmankhel
    0.07966609 Tarkalani
    0.08251516 Punjabi_Lahore
    0.08392032 Gujarati
    0.08731827 Bahun


    Nothing really pops out to me except for the bolded. Any thoughts?
    What's your background? Your Harappa results are unusual and appear mixed. Though if that's 23andMe V5, that's only ~30% overlap or so, right? Have you imputed your 23andMe raw data at DNA.Land when that still worked?
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J2b2a2b1*) (Hidden Content ) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a* (FTDNA Kit 329180) (YFull: YF63773)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2d5a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494*) (FTDNA Kit 311047) (YFull: YF68408), mtDNA: Hidden Content (FTDNA Kit B6225) (YFull: YF02959) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2* Y7+ Y29+ (R-Y29*) (FTDNA Kit 329181) (YFull: YF65256))

  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakistani View Post
    My great great grandfather from UP claimed that he and his wife were both full Pashtun, which may be a little dubious:



    Would I be able to determine the truth to that by looking at some of my test results? 23andMe, and HarappaWorld:

     
    Population %:

    1 S-Indian 35.31
    2 Baloch 32.74
    3 NE-Euro 8.71
    4 Caucasian 6.9
    5 Mediterranean 6.11
    6 SW-Asian 3.83
    7 NE-Asian 2.83
    8 Siberian 2.59
    9 Beringian 0.74
    10 Papuan 0.11
    11 San 0.08
    12 American 0.04


    Single Population Sharing:

    1 up-muslim (harappa) 5.87
    2 nepalese-a (xing) 8.51
    3 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 8.61
    4 up-brahmin (harappa) 8.89
    5 punjabi (harappa) 9.18
    6 bihari-muslim (harappa) 9.34
    7 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 9.4
    8 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 9.65
    9 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 9.73
    10 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 9.89
    11 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 9.95
    12 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 10.14
    13 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 10.36
    14 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 10.38
    15 vaish (reich) 10.6
    16 kashmiri (harappa) 10.83
    17 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 11.59
    18 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 11.64
    19 cochin-jew (behar) 11.8
    20 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 11.82


    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    1 88.9% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11.1% morocco-n (henn2012) @ 4.16
    2 88.5% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11.5% algeria (henn2012) @ 4.21
    3 82.8% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 17.2% morocco-jew (behar) @ 4.24
    4 89.5% up-brahmin (harappa) + 10.5% tunisia (henn2012) @ 4.28
    5 89% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11% mozabite (hgdp) @ 4.3
    6 88.4% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11.6% libya (henn2012) @ 4.33
    7 89.2% up-brahmin (harappa) + 10.8% saharawi (henn2012) @ 4.36
    8 88.7% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11.3% moroccan (behar) @ 4.39
    9 80.7% gujarati (harappa) + 19.3% ashkenazi (harappa) @ 4.4
    10 82.5% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 17.5% ashkenazy-jew (behar) @ 4.41
    11 81.3% gujarati (harappa) + 18.7% tuscan (1000genomes) @ 4.43
    12 82.3% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 17.7% morocco-jew (behar) @ 4.44
    13 80.6% gujarati (harappa) + 19.4% ashkenazy-jew (behar) @ 4.44
    14 81.9% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 18.1% ashkenazy-jew (behar) @ 4.45
    15 82.1% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 17.9% ashkenazi (harappa) @ 4.45
    16 83% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 17% sephardic-jew (behar) @ 4.46
    17 78.4% kerala-nair (harappa) + 21.6% romanian-a (behar) @ 4.49
    18 87.6% bengali-brahmin (harappa) + 12.4% morocco-jew (behar) @ 4.5
    19 63.3% dharkar (metspalu) + 36.7% tajik (yunusbayev) @ 4.52
    20 84.5% vaish (reich) + 15.5% morocco-jew (behar) @ 4.58


    G25 Modern Averages:

     
    Target: pakistani_scaled
    Distance: 1.4219% / 0.01421929

    37.2 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
    15.6 Gujar_India
    13.4 Jatt_Pathak
    8.4 Gupta
    7.8 Yemenite_Mahra
    5.0 Shor_Khakassia
    4.8 Brahui
    2.2 Japanese
    2.0 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu
    1.8 Basque_Spanish
    1.0 Kanjar
    0.4 Kosipe
    0.4 Madiga

    Target: pakistani_scaled
    Distance: 1.8600% / 0.01860045 | ADC: 0.25x

    35.8 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
    21.0 Burusho
    19.2 Brahmin_West_Bengal
    6.6 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
    6.2 Yemenite_Mahra
    4.0 Gujar_India
    3.6 Brahmin_Gujarat
    3.6 Jatt_Pathak

    Distance to: pakistani_scaled

    0.04037301 Brahmin_Gujarat
    0.04340859 Gujar_India
    0.04834304 Kashmiri_Pandit
    0.05010389 Kohistani
    0.05061369 Burusho
    0.05138342 Khatri
    0.05349074 Gujar_Pakistan
    0.05392985 Sindhi
    0.05546853 Punjabi_Jatt
    0.05554464 Brahmin_West_Bengal
    0.05610852 Kshatriya
    0.05852728 Kamboj
    0.06010509 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
    0.06299978 Iyer
    0.06369006 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu
    0.06630154 Pashtun
    0.06864628 Ror
    0.07002881 Jatt_Pathak
    0.07072149 Yusufzai
    0.07675920 Kho_Singanali
    0.07786632 Uthmankhel
    0.07966609 Tarkalani
    0.08251516 Punjabi_Lahore
    0.08392032 Gujarati
    0.08731827 Bahun


    Nothing really pops out to me except for the bolded. Any thoughts?
    I agree with @Riverman - matches can be helpful in this scenario.

    My grandad had a kinda similar experience. His family claims central Asian (but not Pashtun) ancestry. However, 23andme shows he has 24 or so Afghan matches. And when I look at chromosome view, I can see that all these matches are along specific segments on chromosomes 3, 11, 14 and 18; most are 'yes' IBD matches by the looks of it. Interestingly, those along 11 and 14 are all Pashtun by ethnicity (mostly from Pakitika, Paktia and Wardak) with a few Pakistanis (Waziristan) and UP Pathans (Bulandshehr) in the mix too.

    So I think what subzero said, above, is correct. It seems that the Pashtuns got round quite a bit. It could be due to military service in Mughal times, or in the armies of Nawabs, or even a remnant of the Naderian or Durrani campaigns in North India (the latter is probably more credible in the case of Punjabis given the history of the Durrani empire).

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    Probably straight up immigration is more likely. People who might have been half Pashtun but identified as Afghan could have moved to India and then their kids just said their parent was Afghan. That's the case for a friend of mine who is a Muslim from UP/Delhi (and before that, Mumbai allegedly). He has like 1-3% more SW-Asian/Caucasian, but he has a small segment or two where he has a dozen Pashtun matches which seems to most likely be IBD. He thought his grandfather was Afghan but according to this the grandparent was 25 or 50% Pashtun meaning his 100% Afghan Pashtun ancestor was a great or great-great grandparent.
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J2b2a2b1*) (Hidden Content ) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a* (FTDNA Kit 329180) (YFull: YF63773)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2d5a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494*) (FTDNA Kit 311047) (YFull: YF68408), mtDNA: Hidden Content (FTDNA Kit B6225) (YFull: YF02959) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2* Y7+ Y29+ (R-Y29*) (FTDNA Kit 329181) (YFull: YF65256))

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     laltota (07-23-2020),  subzero85 (07-24-2020)

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