Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 47

Thread: Reconciling the claimed West-African ancestry in certain Great Lakes clans

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    582
    Y-DNA (P)
    L1c
    mtDNA (M)
    L3b

    ZanzibarSultanate Iran Southern Sudan India Nigeria ZanzibarSultanate

    Reconciling the claimed West-African ancestry in certain Great Lakes clans

    Reposting this from here . Thought maybe we could get a dialogue started. In another thread some time ago, Angoliga said that he'd heard the same notion of recent West-African ancestry from certain groups in Uganda, if I recall correctly. My own grandmother [of Musoga ancestry] claimed the same. Phenotypic observances aside, with the current samples and method its hard to substantiate such ancestry, seemingly. This is mirrored by South Asians with recent Central Asian ancestry [i.e. Uzbek] not being recognised on the G25. Would also like your thoughts on what seems to be the ability to hone in on African ancestry only when using unscaled coordinates. Here's my original post:

    Messing around till my Ancestry results come through, 23andme have been a joke [personally] Hopefully Ancestry don't utilize 'smoothing' and the 100snp panel 23andme they use - they definitely will test for more SNPs than whatever tf 23andme were doing at v5 implementation. Anyway tangent aside, Ugandan Basoga ancestry but confused as to what 'Sudanese' is compensating for in what the Luo should theoretically already cover?

    Target: yams
    Distance: 2.7557% / 0.02755748
    87.8 GenericBaloch+LowcasteIndian+Iran
    8.2 Luo
    3.0 Sudanese
    1.0 Yoruba

    Laka is always the closest non-Eurasian (?) admixed group to me if you remove Kikuyus etc. Also the preponderance of Cameroon populations over much closer geographic and ancestral groups (Luo+Luhya). May it be that Basoga harbor some Sahelian/Chadic ancestry or some Jola/Atlantic Coast component ?


    Distance to: yams
    0.02952582 GenericBaloch+LowcasteIndian+Iran
    0.08127006 Laka
    0.08338266 Cameroon_Bafut
    0.08347043 Luo
    0.08396819 Cameroon_Mbo
    0.08434548 Cameroon_Aghem
    0.08655513 Cameroon_Bakoko
    0.08851395 Luhya_Kenya
    0.09026861 Igbo
    0.09043733 Sandawe
    0.09216566 Yoruba
    0.10099268 Hadza
    0.10283138 Sudanese
    0.10640659 Ethiopian_Anuak

    Second edit: Has anyone noticed that you can hone in on specific ancestry (specifically african v non african) using unscaled coords? This is crazy:

    Target:yams
    Distance: 7.6888% / 0.07688837
    70.4 Angolan
    26.8 Dinka
    1.6 Mbuti
    1.2 Khomani_San

    That is more or less exactly what you'd expect from a 100% Great Lakes Nilo-Bantu i.e. Luhya...for some reason Kikongo from Angola is always preferred but I need to message david about this. Without Angola:

    Target: yams
    Distance: 7.7580% / 0.07758020
    35.6 Cameroon_Bangwa
    22.6 Cameroon_Bafut
    22.0 Dinka
    15.0 Luo
    2.6 Khomani_San
    2.2 Mbuti

    I can't use Hadza unfortunately cuz their strange psuedo-Eurasian signal messes everything up.

    Here's the only study where Basoga [thankfully] been studied...notice the Guinean/Ivorian/Mende signal present clearly in the Soga and not the geographic neighboring Luhya:

    Screenshot_2020-07-22_00-14-11.png

    Kinda in keeping with this, from the new Bangime paper, we can see that the authors employed a new method (increasing K over the amount of populations involved) to reconcile Dogon populations to appear correctly instead of the usual Khoisan+Eurasian they exhibit due to an artifact effect. In this same paper, Luhya+Luos are exhibiting a lot more of the 'Atlantic' signal than I've seen in any other study where Bantu is differentiated from Atlantic. Being able to properly differentiate these signals is still in infancy, due to what I believe is the massive structurally complex profile of most African populations.

    Utilizing SAPDA and a measurement of shared genetic drift specifically via rare SNPs, we see:

    Screenshot_2020-07-02_03-09-29.png Screenshot_2020-07-02_03-09-39.png

    Here Dilawer/Kurd used Luhya (I erroneously presumed it was Dinka) to represent East Africa, and Yoruba+Mende for West-Africa, obviously. The Luhya are very similar to Ugandan Bantu populations East of Lake Albert, on the surface, and even the Luhya languages are phylogenetically close to Ugandan zone languages i.e. Luganda/Lusoga, part of a Nyanza continuum. Theoretically, all of the ~18% shared drift above should fall into Luhya, but we can observe that a strong Yoruba/Mende drift is being exhibited. This further helps to support such claims of recent WA ancestry in my opinion.

    Finally, although my 23andme relatives list is quite short, I've recorded African-American, Afro-Cuban, Dominican and Puerto Rican matches - I'm not convinced that any peoples were directly enslaved from the Great Lakes region to the Americas, with this Eastern cohort making way to Arabia and beyond only. This is touched upon in this thesis where the author remains unsure as to why some mtdna lineages in Uganda share exact haplotypes with African Americans/Dominicans/P-Ricans, as opposed to more 'native' Bantu haplotypes of the same clade. In Mosaic maternal ancestry in the Great Lakes region of East Africa the authors find the same phenomena, of certain clades [including Nilotic/Sudanic] ones not conforming to typical Bantu haplotypes. To me, this points to the oral history that I've been told, wherein wives from 'the West of Africa' were captured/traded/acquired some how, brought most likely through the Savannah corridor instead of the Congo basin, perhaps may be true.

    Here's some final haplotype figures indicating various haplotypes of the same clade found in Uganda:

    Screenshot_2020-07-23_18-39-31.pngScreenshot_2020-07-23_18-38-55.png


    I expect my Ancestry results and tha supporting G25/SAPDA etc to be even more indicative of this WA shift but I'll have to wait and see.
    Last edited by ThaYamamoto; 07-23-2020 at 09:00 PM.

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to ThaYamamoto For This Useful Post:

     Angoliga (07-23-2020),  Don Felipe (10-07-2020),  Hurricane (09-12-2020),  pgbk87 (07-24-2020)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    582
    Y-DNA (P)
    L1c
    mtDNA (M)
    L3b

    ZanzibarSultanate Iran Southern Sudan India Nigeria ZanzibarSultanate
    Forgot to add the admixture run from the new Bangime/Bangande paper:

    Screenshot_2020-07-23_18-15-12.png
    Last edited by ThaYamamoto; 07-23-2020 at 06:02 PM.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to ThaYamamoto For This Useful Post:

     Megalophias (07-23-2020)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    582
    Y-DNA (P)
    L1c
    mtDNA (M)
    L3b

    ZanzibarSultanate Iran Southern Sudan India Nigeria ZanzibarSultanate
    Been running through with individual samples this time. But the massive spanner in the works is that my paternal side also claims 'mchotara' origins, and he sure looks it, albeit through his great-great-grandmother [tribe unknown, most likely Luo but really its up in tha air].

    Runs with individuals:

    Target: yams
    Distance: 2.8779% / 0.02877864
    85.2 Baloch+LowcasteIndian+WestIran
    6.2 Luo
    4.6 Cameroon_Aghem
    4.0 Dinka

    Minus Cameroon individuals:

    Target: yams
    Distance: 2.8825% / 0.02882527
    85.4 Baloch+LowcasteIndian+WestIran
    8.6 Luo
    3.8 Dinka
    2.2 Esan_Nigeria

    Minus 'Dinka3':

    Target: yams
    Distance: 2.8881% / 0.02888062
    85.6 Baloch+LowcasteIndian+WestIran
    9.8 Luo
    2.4 Ethiopian_Anuak
    2.0 Esan_Nigeria
    0.2 Sudanese


    Minus Anuak individuals:

    Target: yams
    Distance: 2.8885% / 0.02888526
    85.6 Baloch+LowcasteIndian+WestIran
    9.2 Luo
    3.2 Sudanese
    2.0 Esan_Nigeria


    Returning the Cameroonians:

    Target: yams
    Distance: 2.8846% / 0.02884577
    85.2 Baloch+LowcasteIndian+WestIran
    6.6 Luo
    4.4 Cameroon_Aghem
    3.8 Sudanese



    Distance to: yams
    0.03140306 Baloch+LowcasteIndian+WestIran
    0.08126075 Cameroon_Bafut:TK-KVBAF045
    0.08127121 Cameroon_Mbo:CAM-MBO-083
    0.08137752 Laka:T_Laka-1.DG

    0.08150245 Luo:Ayodo_423C
    0.08160974 Laka:T_Laka-2.DG
    0.08202085 Cameroon_Bafut:TK-KVBAF012
    0.08204487 Sudanese:SUDANESE3
    0.08208806 Ngumba:T_Ngumba-1.DG
    0.08221521 Angolan
    0.08221521 AngolanAverage

    0.08223430 Luo:Ayodo_502C
    0.08224464 Mada:T_Mada-2.DG
    0.08227527 Lemande:S_Lemande-2.DG
    0.08240856 Cameroon_Aghem:TK-KVWUM025
    0.08255556 Cameroon_Aghem:TK-KVWUM028
    0.08256173 Kaba:T_Kaba-2.DG
    0.08267140 Tikar_South:T_Tikar_South-2.DG
    0.08280109 Cameroon_Aghem:TK-KVWUM023
    0.08283701 Cameroon_Mbo:CAM-MBO-093
    0.08293244 Bantu_S.W.:KSP201
    0.08303590 Cameroon_Aghem:TK-KVWUM020
    0.08321184 Cameroon_Aghem:TK-KVWUM008


    The pull toward NW Cameroon populations straddling the border between Cameroon and Nigerian Calabar is interesting. Don't know what to make of Laka unless they have Eurasian ancestry I haven't pried out.
    Last edited by ThaYamamoto; 07-23-2020 at 08:58 PM.

  6. #4
    Moderator
    Posts
    797
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Central/E. Sudanic
    Y-DNA (P)
    A-M13 (A-Y95250*)
    mtDNA (M)
    L3x2b
    Y-DNA (M)
    B2a1
    mtDNA (P)
    L2e*

    Canada Uganda
    Just to clarify, I've heard notions of recent West-African migrations into Uganda, more often than not from Nigeria oddly enough, but they're all unfounded and lack any uni-paternal data to suggest anything following initial Bantu-migrations.

    Regarding the closer affinity towards Laka and other Cameroonian pops, it could be their forager-related ancestry that's causing them to gravitate towards your KEN_LSA-like forager ancestry.

    If I'm not mistaken, the only notable West-African migrations into East-Africa would be across the Sahel in modern day Sudan/S.Sudan from Fulani pastoral-related groups and pops from predominantly Muslim West-Sudanic regions like the Hausa.

    There's limitation using G25 to distill minor ancestry definitively due to recombination. In your case, your West-African-like affinities could descend from diverse sources (Luhya, Luo, Kikuyu) via several ancestors going back multiple generations. The alleles from that minor ancestry keep getting reshuffled every generation, so what's being rendered in G25 using modern samples, as an end product of several generations shouldn't be interpreted literally.

    Out of curiosity, do you have multiple siblings who've also tested with G25? For illustrative purposes, you could run their cords using the same source samples -- you'll notice results for minor ancestry will vary due to recombination

    - I hope that makes sense
    .... .. I have spoken."

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Angoliga For This Useful Post:

     Don Felipe (10-07-2020),  ThaYamamoto (07-23-2020)

  8. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    582
    Y-DNA (P)
    L1c
    mtDNA (M)
    L3b

    ZanzibarSultanate Iran Southern Sudan India Nigeria ZanzibarSultanate
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoliga View Post
    Just to clarify, I've heard notions of recent West-African migrations into Uganda, more often than not from Nigeria oddly enough, but they're all unfounded and lack any uni-paternal data to suggest anything following initial Bantu-migrations.
    Yeah I totally get its anecdotal and hasn't been any where near confirmed, its just weird how I've heard Nigeria too.

    Regarding the closer affinity towards Laka and other Cameroonian pops, it could be their forager-related ancestry that's causing them to gravitate towards your KEN_LSA-like forager ancestry.
    I see, but wouldn't Luo/Luhya and the other Bantu pops in the list have that LSA ancestry already embedded, and being far closer to my actual ancestry, trump Cameroon/Laka/Angola?

    If I'm not mistaken, the only notable West-African migrations into East-Africa would be across the Sahel in modern day Sudan/S.Sudan from Fulani pastoral-related groups and pops from predominantly Muslim West-Sudanic regions like the Hausa.
    For sure, that's the only confirmed migration that I know of.

    There's limitation using G25 to distill minor ancestry definitively due to recombination. In your case, your West-African-like affinities could descend from diverse sources (Luhya, Luo, Kikuyu) via several ancestors going back multiple generations. The alleles from that minor ancestry keep getting reshuffled every generation, so what's being rendered in G25 using modern samples, as an end product of several generations shouldn't be interpreted literally.
    Right, recombination and inheritance not my forte at all. Wouldn't the Yoruba signal inherited through that multigenerational admixture still be embedded in the Luhya sample as can be seen on SAPDA? I take your word for it though, its just this itch I'm trynna get to tha bottom of...G25 wise I understand but shared drift on SAPDA is what's nagging me. I do get that the Cameroon+Laka and Angolan samples do harbor significantly more Atlantic ancestry than Great Lakes peoples, and due to recombination like you're suggesting, that + forager = closer distance? Makes sense I gotta say.

    Out of curiosity, do you have multiple siblings who've also tested with G25? For illustrative purposes, you could run their cords using the same source samples -- you'll notice results for minor ancestry will vary due to recombination

    - I hope that makes sense
    Nah unfortunately not yet, I'm trynna get my sister to get tested and see wassup wit that. Hopefully this COVID storm blows over by next year and I can visit Iganga with some tests aswell... It makes sense alright and I appreciate your insight man. But what would finally explain my matches in the Americas? Could thousands of years of Eastern Bantu separation still show up as IBD[?] The thesis I linked above also couldn't understand why specific mtdna haplotypes matched with AAs and Dominicans instead of those more local, and suggests possibly that the Swahili/Arabs traded with the Europeans, but I haven't been able to find anything that confirms that, and it seems very dubious.
    Last edited by ThaYamamoto; 07-24-2020 at 12:57 AM.

  9. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    582
    Y-DNA (P)
    L1c
    mtDNA (M)
    L3b

    ZanzibarSultanate Iran Southern Sudan India Nigeria ZanzibarSultanate
    Personal anecdotes aside heres an fst chart from the Mulindiwa paper. Notice UBB (Basoga) exhibiting more closeness with the CIV/Ivorian samples than the Luhya, and surprisingly, far closer than the Zambian sample who at least on admixture, show more westerly affinity.

    Screenshot_2020-07-24_02-32-50.png
    Last edited by ThaYamamoto; 07-24-2020 at 04:28 PM.

  10. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    582
    Y-DNA (P)
    L1c
    mtDNA (M)
    L3b

    ZanzibarSultanate Iran Southern Sudan India Nigeria ZanzibarSultanate
    So turns out I have more than 50 African-American matches, and counting, on Ancestry. I can post screenshots editing names out if needed. I'm sure this amount of shared IBD further heavily supports a common West-African ancestor [within the last 400 years?] unless all of these diverse AAs (from communities across the traditional AA sphere, Louisiana/Texas/Alabama/Mississippi/Virginia/Carolinas) have Eastern Bantu ancestry which I find absolutely unlikely. Like c'mon. Do any fully Eastern Bantu/Nilotic/Sudanic people share any AA matches?
    Last edited by ThaYamamoto; 07-27-2020 at 02:53 AM.

  11. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    582
    Y-DNA (P)
    L1c
    mtDNA (M)
    L3b

    ZanzibarSultanate Iran Southern Sudan India Nigeria ZanzibarSultanate
    Quote Originally Posted by ThaYamamoto View Post
    So turns out I have more than 50 African-American matches, and counting, on Ancestry. I can post screenshots editing names out if needed. I'm sure this amount of shared IBD further heavily supports a common West-African ancestor [within the last 400 years?] unless all of these diverse AAs (from communities across the traditional AA sphere, Louisiana/Texas/Alabama/Mississippi/Virginia/Carolinas) have Eastern Bantu ancestry which I find absolutely unlikely. Like c'mon. Do any fully Eastern Bantu/Nilotic/Sudanic people share any AA matches?
    So no one got an opinon on tha AA matches then....right....

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to ThaYamamoto For This Useful Post:

     drobbah (07-28-2020)

  13. #9
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,052
    Sex
    Omitted
    Ethnicity
    Somali
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-BY75676
    mtDNA (M)
    L0a1d
    Y-DNA (M)
    T-FGC92488

    Somaliland Ethiopia Adal Sultanate Yemen Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by ThaYamamoto View Post
    So no one got an opinon on tha AA matches then....right....
    My mother on ancestry has around 30 matches with Arabs predominantly from Yemen & the Gulf and she has very distant Yemeni ancestry.If they are matching with you then they probably have some sort of Bantu ancestry.If I recall even some African Americans descend from SE Africans, the famous Wayan brothers have an Austronesnian haplogroup which they probably got from a Malagasy ancestor

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to drobbah For This Useful Post:

     Deftextra (07-28-2020),  Riverman (09-14-2020),  ThaYamamoto (07-28-2020)

  15. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    582
    Y-DNA (P)
    L1c
    mtDNA (M)
    L3b

    ZanzibarSultanate Iran Southern Sudan India Nigeria ZanzibarSultanate
    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    My mother on ancestry has around 30 matches with Arabs predominantly from Yemen & the Gulf and she has very distant Yemeni ancestry.If they are matching with you then they probably have some sort of Bantu ancestry.If I recall even some African Americans descend from SE Africans, the famous Wayan brothers have an Austronesnian haplogroup which they probably got from a Malagasy ancestor
    That's interesting, but as she does indeed have Yemeni ancestry I can understand, it would be what, in the last 300-400 years right? Please correct if I'm wrong I think tha consensus here is usually like 'here's mans hypothesis so now we gotta reject or confirm' but I'm just trynna conduct an inquiry..this oral history I've been passed down gotta be rooted in something, particularly cuz AAs do seem to be majority Nigerian (where I've been told we share ancestry) at this point. The small amount of Malgasy ancestry in AAs is pretty interesting too I just got an issue wit the fact that all these AA matches are from various communities/hotspots and that the Bantu ancestry would be of the western stream which would make sense on admixture but this is IBD so its like...a common ancestor from way back at Bantu dispersal would be 3-5k years ago do you know what I mean? I've still been counting and its 80+ at this point with 500 matches total so its crazy disproportionate. I haven't seen any full-blooded SE folks matches so I really don't know if I can cross reference someone from Zim for example, I do have a Zim match but no shared AA matches with him, so if anyone would like to share what they know that would be cool especially if they from Great Lakes or adjacent. Also on't wanna beat a dead horse but that thesis found shared haplotypes with AAs/Dominicans that weren't local to Uganda.
    Last edited by ThaYamamoto; 07-28-2020 at 01:58 AM.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to ThaYamamoto For This Useful Post:

     drobbah (07-28-2020)

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 65
    Last Post: 10-22-2020, 05:57 PM
  2. West African Y-DNA, North African Ancestry
    By Smaa in forum Northern
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 06-05-2020, 01:52 AM
  3. Is DNA.Land accurate with West African ancestry?
    By Dnaexplorer321 in forum DNA.Land
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-20-2018, 05:29 AM
  4. Replies: 27
    Last Post: 06-11-2018, 10:17 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-18-2016, 06:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •