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Thread: Reconciling the claimed West-African ancestry in certain Great Lakes clans

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaYamamoto View Post
    In K33's thread, you can see Morocco North score the respective BasalWest+Central+East+PrePastoral+UstIshim that coincides exactly with the amount of Yoruba/Dinka scored in a standard 'deep' model plus 17-18% ANA which shifts them toward SSA (I never said ANA=SSA, but it definitely plots in this manner) thus Morocco North plots well ahead of the Egyptian average.

    Pre-Pastoralist component that he created contains West Eurasian ancestry (also significant ANA ancestry).Isn't Ust Ishim a Eurasian sample that was prior to the differentiation of West & East Eurasian? I don't know how that correlates with the amount of Yoruba & sometimes Dinka in Maghrebis

    Egyptian average plots a bit ahead of the Morocco_North sample and I ran the pca using the components in K33's G25 calculator:




    I don't think we can take K33's G25 results for face value especially when results like this make no sense.Dinka being 36% Eurasian is just absurd to think about
    Target: Drobbah_scaled
    Distance: 6.9484% / 0.06948401
    35.0 Basal_East_African
    25.0 RUS_Ust_Ishim
    24.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    10.2 Ancestral_N_African
    2.6 Caspian
    2.4 WHG

    Target: Dinka
    Distance: 3.4691% / 0.03469119
    53.8 Basal_East_African
    36.0 RUS_Ust_Ishim
    8.8 Basal_West_African
    1.4 Ancestral_N_African








    This is why PCAs can be more informative in many ways and over-reliance on nMonte can be a mistake imho. I believe I plot where a min.max 18% SSA (thanks AncestryDNA) non-IBM harboring, high Iran Mesolithic individual should when taking into account Maghrebi's SSA+ANA, Egyptians high basal resulting in SSA depression etc, and discounting nMonte maximum likelihood faults.
    How do we know for sure SSA suppression is happening in MENA + Horners because of their Basal heavy Natufian ancestry?
    Last edited by drobbah; 09-17-2020 at 09:49 PM.
    Drobbah_scaled
    Target: Drobbah_scaled
    Distance: 4.2508% / 0.04250752
    52.2 Sudanese
    19.6 Proto-Natufian_(simulated)
    13.6 MAR_Taforalt
    11.0 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
    3.6 ETH_4500BP

    Distance: 1.2698% / 0.01269848 | ADC: 0.25x
    31.0 KEN_Pastoral_N
    26.4 KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan
    18.4 TZA_PN
    12.0 KEN_HyraxHill_2300BP
    10.6 KEN_Pastoral_IA

  2. #42
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    The discussion is still mostly reasonable, but I wonder how far can we push the Out-of-Africa vs In-Africa admixture dichotomy deep in prehistory before it becomes worthless insofar as describing genetic relatedness between modern populations.

    I think we can all agree on the basic premise that out-of-Africa is a more coherent population and an the in-Africa groupings is essentially a catch-all of deeper lineages, but let's postulate that we have X population in 40k BP Africa ends up mixing with a Out-of-Africa back migration and is 50/50 African/non-African, does it make sense to classify such a population as 50/50 in a late Paleolithic context around 10k BP considering all the drift that happened since?

    At the end of the day it's arbitrary, but I wonder what people's opinions are, because when discussing things everyone has to put the line somewhere on the sand to be able to use certain terminology.
    Last edited by Granary; 09-18-2020 at 01:00 AM.

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Pre-Pastoralist component that he created contains West Eurasian ancestry (also significant ANA ancestry).Isn't Ust Ishim a Eurasian sample that was prior to the differentiation of West & East Eurasian? I don't know how that correlates with the amount of Yoruba & sometimes Dinka in Maghrebis

    Egyptian average plots a bit ahead of the Morocco_North sample and I ran the pca using the components in K33's G25 calculator:




    I don't think we can take K33's G25 results for face value especially when results like this make no sense.Dinka being 36% Eurasian is just absurd to think about
    Target: Drobbah_scaled
    Distance: 6.9484% / 0.06948401
    35.0 Basal_East_African
    25.0 RUS_Ust_Ishim
    24.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    10.2 Ancestral_N_African
    2.6 Caspian
    2.4 WHG

    Target: Dinka
    Distance: 3.4691% / 0.03469119
    53.8 Basal_East_African
    36.0 RUS_Ust_Ishim
    8.8 Basal_West_African
    1.4 Ancestral_N_African








    How do we know for sure SSA suppression is happening in MENA + Horners because of their Basal heavy Natufian ancestry?
    The experimental K33 model is not appropriate or suitable to employ as a PCA, he's using simulations and experimental components hence tha name. So I can't comment on your PCA. I was talking specifically regarding my all Africa G25 PCA. Egyptian Average will not plot ahead of Morocco North avg on an all-Africa cline in a solid PCA, the only ANA Egyptians harbor would be nested within their Natufian ancestry if it comes to light that Natufians indeed harbor ANA.

    Did you at least look at the first nMonte run I posted? Ust Ishim in this particular model is hitting 40+% in Bantu pops representing a ghost ancestral component in modern day SSAs. In the experimental calculator Ust Ishim routinely contributes toward Bantus in particular, more so than in west-west Africans, so I'm assuming here and here alone, its a proxy for something yet unknown in most modern SSAs. Its not really a problem within the confines of this model. Actually I swear K33 has discussed what Ust Ishim is playing here, I just can't be bothered going through the thread rn. Maybe check it out.The role Ust Ishim plays in general I don't think has been concluded yet, but again that isn't an interest of mine at this current time. In that same thread K33 explained what's going on with Dinka, so I'm not going to go over that again when the calculator's author has addressed it.

    I'm not exactly sure as to SSA suppression in Horners cuz that isn't my field of interest, but it does frequently occur in MENA/high basal Eurasian modern groups -an artefact of nMonte stat script. Why Basal is acting this way, Mnemonics already broke it down. As did gihanga I think when they broke down the conceptualization of Basal Eurasian with each iteration/novel model per the studies.
    Last edited by ThaYamamoto; 09-18-2020 at 02:15 AM.

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaYamamoto View Post
    The experimental K33 model is not appropriate or suitable to employ as a PCA, he's using simulations and experimental components hence tha name. So I can't comment on your PCA. I was talking specifically regarding my all Africa G25 PCA. Egyptian Average will not plot ahead of Morocco North avg on an all-Africa cline in a solid PCA, the only ANA Egyptians harbor would be nested within their Natufian ancestry if it comes to light that Natufians indeed harbor ANA.
    Don't understand why you are so invested against Egyptians plotting closer to Eurasian especially Levantines/Arabians compared to the Maghreb and haven't seen any evidence refuting that either.You are entitled to your opinion tho

    Did you at least look at the first nMonte run I posted? Ust Ishim in this particular model is hitting 40+% in Bantu pops representing a ghost ancestral component in modern day SSAs. In the experimental calculator Ust Ishim routinely contributes toward Bantus in particular, more so than in west-west Africans, so I'm assuming here and here alone, its a proxy for something yet unknown in most modern SSAs. Its not really a problem within the confines of this model. Actually I swear K33 has discussed what Ust Ishim is playing here, I just can't be bothered going through the thread rn. Maybe check it out.The role Ust Ishim plays in general I don't think has been concluded yet, but again that isn't an interest of mine at this current time. In that same thread K33 explained what's going on with Dinka, so I'm not going to go over that again when the calculator's author has addressed it.

    I'm not exactly sure as to SSA suppression in Horners cuz that isn't my field of interest, but it does frequently occur in MENA/high basal Eurasian modern groups -an artefact of nMonte stat script. Why Basal is acting this way, Mnemonics already broke it down. As did gihanga I think when they broke down the conceptualization of Basal Eurasian with each iteration/novel model per the studies.
    All you said in the above just goes to show how confused everyone is about African genetics.So untill we get ancient African genomes all you or anyone else can do is shoot in the dark and hypothesize.Anyways continue on with the thread!


    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    The discussion is still mostly reasonable, but I wonder how far can we push the Out-of-Africa vs In-Africa admixture dichotomy deep in prehistory before it becomes worthless insofar as describing genetic relatedness between modern populations.

    I think we can all agree on the basic premise that out-of-Africa is a more coherent population and an the in-Africa groupings is essentially a catch-all of deeper lineages, but let's postulate that we have X population in 40k BP Africa ends up mixing with a Out-of-Africa back migration and is 50/50 African/non-African, does it make sense to classify such a population as 50/50 in a late Paleolithic context around 10k BP considering all the drift that happened since?

    At the end of the day it's arbitrary, but I wonder what people's opinions are, because when discussing things everyone has to put the line somewhere on the sand to be able to use certain terminology.
    It becomes an issue when one attempts to use the dichotomy and estimate the "Africanness" and non-African percentages of a population without any ancient genomes from the Sahara for AEA,Western Africa,the Horn, Arabia (possible Basal Eurasian sample) and most importantly for me anyways, the Nile Valley & Red Sea Hills.
    Last edited by drobbah; 09-18-2020 at 03:08 AM.
    Drobbah_scaled
    Target: Drobbah_scaled
    Distance: 4.2508% / 0.04250752
    52.2 Sudanese
    19.6 Proto-Natufian_(simulated)
    13.6 MAR_Taforalt
    11.0 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
    3.6 ETH_4500BP

    Distance: 1.2698% / 0.01269848 | ADC: 0.25x
    31.0 KEN_Pastoral_N
    26.4 KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan
    18.4 TZA_PN
    12.0 KEN_HyraxHill_2300BP
    10.6 KEN_Pastoral_IA

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Don't understand why you are so invested against Egyptians plotting closer to Eurasian especially Levantines/Arabians compared to the Maghreb and haven't seen any evidence refuting that either.You are entitled to your opinion tho


    All you said in the above just goes to show how confused everyone is about African genetics.So untill we get ancient African genomes all you or anyone else can do is shoot in the dark and hypothesize.Anyways continue on with the thread!
    Lol so you don't got an actual riposte to none of the points you been going around in circles like NASCAR from myself or any of the more knowledgeable members...right...

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaYamamoto View Post
    Lol so you don't got an actual riposte to none of the points you been going around in circles like NASCAR from myself or any of the more knowledgeable members...right...
    Just to clarify, you haven't provided any concrete evidence that the Northern Moroccan samples plot closer to Eurasians (Levantines,Arabians) than the Egyptian samples which is the main reason why I entered this thread in the first place.Anyways this thread is about Bantus, and I shouldn't waste your time so I'll leave you to it

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Just to clarify, you haven't provided any concrete evidence that the Northern Moroccan samples plot closer to Eurasians (Levantines,Arabians) than the Egyptian samples which is the main reason why I entered this thread in the first place.Anyways this thread is about Bantus, and I shouldn't waste your time so I'll leave you to it
    Man do you even read what's posted? The whole point is the Egyptian average is closer to Eurasians than Maghrebis precisely because IBM shifts Maghrebis further toward SSA. I've said this countless times, the Egyptian average/non outliers are closer to Eurasians. Why that was relevant is in relation to me on the appropriate Africa PCA.

    edit: think I just got it. When I said plots 'ahead' you think I mean toward Eurasian, but what I actually mean is toward SSA. So Maghreb_North ahead of Egyptian to me means more SSA. Is this the misunderstanding going on here?

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