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Thread: How to model non-Yamnaya steppe ancestry? Difference between western and eastern euro

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dame View Post
    In Scandinavia, the pattern is beginning to become more oriental compared to the Danes and the Irish. To assume that Slavs group with Nordics is completely bizarre.
    Poles do cluster with Nordics in terms of ancient ancestry proportions. They don't cluster with Balkan populations.

    To claim that Poles cluster with Balkan populations, like you're doing here, is completely bizarre.

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  3. #22
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    This thread has been temporarily closed while we decide what to do with it. As a general reminder, one-on-one arguments and personalization of discussions are to be avoided at all times.
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    This thread has been re-opened for now, and it is being monitored. Once again, if you wish to have a productive discussion, please keep your language civil and avoid making accusations.
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  7. #24
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    Other examples of what has been said. Notice how the high EHG value is not accompanied by a proportional CHG value in the east. In the West a proportional value of CHG accompanies the value of EHG.

    Target: Danish
    Distance: 7.0380% / 0.07037953
    45.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    35.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
    11.2 GEO_CHG
    8.6 WHG

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 7.1123% / 0.07112300
    45.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    34.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
    12.4 GEO_CHG
    8.6 WHG

    Target: Estonian
    Distance: 6.8846% / 0.06884590
    48.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
    36.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    7.6 WHG
    7.2 GEO_CHG

    Target: Russian_Kostroma
    Distance: 5.8178% / 0.05817808
    51.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
    36.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    10.2 GEO_CHG
    2.0 WHG

    Target: Finnish
    Distance: 5.9233% / 0.05923289
    50.6 RUS_Karelia_HG
    36.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    8.0 GEO_CHG
    5.2 WHG

    Even if the Yamnaya option is removed from the source it is still possible to observe where the Yamnaya signal is strongest based on the ratio between EHG / CHG. In the west, the CHG component proportionally accompanies the EHG element in a proportion very similar to the EHG / CHG ratio in Yamnaya. In the order, there is much more EHG than CHG in terms of ratios coming out of the western Yamnaya standard. Just calculate the EHG / CHG ratio and understand why the Yamnaya signal is stronger in the Northwest, although the EHG component is definitely stronger in the Northeast.

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  9. #25
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    So you're comparing Northwestern Euros to Uralic populations like Estonians and Finns, as well as Uralic-substrate pops like Russia Kostroma, and you're drawing conclusions about Eastern Europe in general from that? Why ignore Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, and Russians in favor of Uralics like Udmurts? Pretty strange.

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  11. #26
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    To understand what I'm talking about, just compare corded were early with the sequence. When the steppe people arrived in northeastern Europe the place was not empty and the mix with the locals was intense, diluting the Yamnaya sign over time.

    Target: Corded_Ware_Baltic_early:I4629
    Distance: 4.5828% / 0.04582775
    86.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    10.4 RUS_Karelia_HG
    2.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    0.2 UKR_Meso

    Target: Corded_Ware_Baltic:Spiginas2
    Distance: 5.2956% / 0.05295577
    54.6 UKR_Meso
    20.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    18.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.2 RUS_Karelia_HG

    Target: Corded_Ware_Balticlinkaigalis241
    Distance: 3.4862% / 0.03486189
    59.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    23.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    8.4 RUS_Karelia_HG
    7.8 WHG
    0.2 Nganassan

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  13. #27
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    Target: Corded_Ware_POL_early:poz81
    Distance: 2.6870% / 0.02686952
    94.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    4.6 WHG
    0.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N

    arget: Corded_Ware_POL:N47
    Distance: 3.6016% / 0.03601643
    31.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    27.0 UKR_Meso
    26.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    8.6 WHG
    6.8 RUS_Karelia_HG

    Target: Corded_Ware_POL:N49
    Distance: 3.0542% / 0.03054214
    38.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    33.2 UKR_Meso
    24.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    3.6 WHG

  14. #28
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    Yes, we can clearly see in the calculators that West Europeans have more components linked to the Caucasus than East Europeans.
    This Caucasian component is clearly Yamnaya, and not come from the Anatolian Neolithics.

    Yamnaya can be perceived as a mixture of EHG and CHG (70/30%)
    But there are some differences between Yamnaya individuals.
    I also think that it is not exactly the same which invaded Eastern and Western Europe.
    And do we really know the history of East Europeans?
    Their similarity gives the impression of having had a recent founding effect.

    This founding effect could skew ancestral ancestry by being based only on a small number of ancestors and perhaps not representative of previous populations.
    Y haplogroup: R1b: L21 --> DF13 --> BY145002
    The oldest L21 known are I2457 et I2565 from Stonehenge (Beaker Culture, 2400-1900 BC)

    MTDNA: U4c1
    The oldest U4c1 known are "poz224", Yamnaya culture (2882-2698 BC), and 2 Bell-Beaker in Germany (Karsdorf, 2314-2042 BC)

    Paternal MTDNA: K1b2b
    The oldest K1b2 are Eastern European Mesolithic: Kunda Donkalnis5 (Lithuania), 6000 BC and Meso-Ene Lepenski Vir Lepe28 in Serbia, 5900 BC.
    The oldest K1b2b is Alt-3, Corded-Ware Germany (2500 BC)

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  16. #29
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    Yes, and how about the old Gedrosian admixture? Regardless how you define it and break it, there is a difference how North West Europeans and East Europeans connect to the Central Asian/Steppe admixure.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/autos...html#Gedrosian

  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolan View Post
    Yes, we can clearly see in the calculators that West Europeans have more components linked to the Caucasus than East Europeans.
    This Caucasian component is clearly Yamnaya, and not come from the Anatolian Neolithics.

    Yamnaya can be perceived as a mixture of EHG and CHG (70/30%)
    But there are some differences between Yamnaya individuals.
    I also think that it is not exactly the same which invaded Eastern and Western Europe.
    And do we really know the history of East Europeans?
    Their similarity gives the impression of having had a recent founding effect.

    This founding effect could skew ancestral ancestry by being based only on a small number of ancestors and perhaps not representative of previous populations.
    Based on qpAdm there is as much or even more CHG in Poland than in West Europe.

    See here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...0TlHg/htmlview

    Global25 calculators with ancient componensts can often not be taken to literal for East Europeans because of extreme Balto-Slavic drift. Slavs prefer there often basal components like LBK over GAC and Ukraine_Meso over steppe but neither was LBK or Ukraine_Meso a direct ancestor of Poles or even Ukrainians. Poles just like North Europeans are mostly a mix of Steppe +GAC but with a slightly higher HG substrate. The same is true for Ukrainians, Belarisians and West Russians with a low Uralic substrate. Proto-Slavs formed out of Central CWC subcultures so Ukraine_Meso or Karelia_HG is irrelevant for modern day Slavs except maybe some North Russians but i am not even sure if they have a significant direct EHG substrate (EHG affinity could partially come from Proto-Uralics from the east)

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