Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 102

Thread: Why do most DNA testing companies label Jews as "European"?

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    225
    Sex

    Why do most DNA testing companies label Jews as "European"?

    It doesn't make sense to me. 23andme labels Ashkenazi Jewish as being "European", AncestryDNA labels them "European Jewish", MyHeritage also labels Jews as European. Don't all Jews, even Ashkenazi, have non-European ancestry? I'm pretty sure Ashkenazi Jews on average are about 40% European 60% Middle Eastern genetically. Why do these DNA testing companies just lump them into Europe and deny their actual mixed background?

    I ask because I came across this https://www.quora.com/What-results-d...-their-results

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Aiden For This Useful Post:

     Nino90 (09-15-2020),  witness (07-04-2021)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,455
    Sex
    Location
    Central Florida
    Ethnicity
    Aegean Greek + NW Euro
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-L26
    mtDNA (M)
    J1b1a

    Greece United States of America
    Ashkenazim, many Sephardim, and Italkim are European Jews because the ethnogenesis of those particular Jews occurred in Europe in pre-Columbian times. It's really as simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiden View Post
    Don't all Jews, even Ashkenazi, have non-European ancestry?
    Yep, and so do many Gentile Europeans. Sicilians and Cretans have a lot of post-Neolithic Near Eastern ancestry. They're still Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiden View Post
    Why do these DNA testing companies just lump them into Europe and deny their actual mixed background?[/url]
    Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

  4. The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to Michalis Moriopoulos For This Useful Post:

     Angoliga (07-27-2020),  Bruzmi (07-27-2020),  Cabaon (06-13-2021),  Cascio (07-28-2020),  hel (09-12-2020),  JerryS. (07-28-2020),  jetshop (07-27-2020),  Kulin (09-18-2020),  loxias (09-20-2020),  Luso (06-14-2021),  msmarjoribanks (07-27-2020),  Power77 (06-26-2021),  Ruderico (07-27-2020),  Tomenable (06-13-2021)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    661
    Sex

    Scotland England Australia Star of David Turkey Egypt
    Does seem as if 23andme is rather insensitive towards Jews and Palestinians, ie so a Holocaust survivor settled in Israel is 100% European? (but not enough for Hitler...) and a Palestinian can't possibly have ancestral locations in Israel or Palestinian Territories? Guess better that than profound favoritism to one over the other.

  6. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Seabass For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-12-2020),  Aiden (07-27-2020),  JerryS. (09-20-2020),  jkotl0327 (06-13-2021),  NetNomad (09-18-2020),  Power77 (06-26-2021),  witness (07-04-2021)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    661
    Sex

    Scotland England Australia Star of David Turkey Egypt
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Ashkenazim, many Sephardim, and Italkim are European Jews because the ethnogenesis of those particular Jews occurred in Europe in pre-Columbian times. It's really as simple as that.
    I see and recognise this point, but I personally find it insulting to see Turkish Jews classed as 'European Jews' considering they've lived in Turkey for over 500 years and had long lived under dhimitude, ie second-class citizen. To me it doesn't matter if they attest that their ancestors fled the 1492 Spanish Inquisition. What, so some Syrian and Egyptian Jews are European imposters too? This is why most Jews once they give it a good think, would probably rather the term 'Western' over 'European' Jew.
    Last edited by Seabass; 07-27-2020 at 08:38 AM.

  8. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Seabass For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-12-2020),  Aiden (07-27-2020),  jkotl0327 (06-13-2021),  Michalis Moriopoulos (07-27-2020),  NetNomad (09-18-2020),  Power77 (06-26-2021)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,455
    Sex
    Location
    Central Florida
    Ethnicity
    Aegean Greek + NW Euro
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-L26
    mtDNA (M)
    J1b1a

    Greece United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Does seem as if 23andme is rather insensitive towards Jews and Palestinians, ie so a Holocaust survivor settled in Israel is 100% European? (but not enough for Hitler...) and a Palestinian can't possibly have ancestral locations in Israel or Palestinian Territories? Guess better that than profound favoritism to one over the other.
    Ideally they would just merge the European and West Asian/North African top categories into one "West Eurasian" category. It wouldn't really change much. They'd still be able to keep most of the subcategories they're using now intact. They won't do this though because the normies would be confused by the term "West Eurasian." It's all business.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

  10. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Michalis Moriopoulos For This Useful Post:

     Bruzmi (07-27-2020),  btree (07-28-2020),  hel (09-12-2020),  jetshop (07-27-2020),  NetNomad (09-18-2020),  pakistani (06-12-2021),  Power77 (06-26-2021),  Ruderico (07-27-2020),  Seabass (07-27-2020),  witness (07-04-2021)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,070
    Sex

    Jews have different subpopulations and populations of which some came into existence in Europe (Ashkenazim and Sephardim). This means they can be distinguished within Jewry by strong European genetic and cultural influences. So it makes the most sense from an internal Jewish perspective. Other than that, it makes also sense to differentiate between those Jews of European background and non-European Jews because of the historical, cultural and genetic differences. If saying "European Jews" its the most correct, because it doesn't imply they are actually completely European genetically or culturally, but it also makes clear which kind of Jewish groups (Ashkenazim or Sephardim) one is talking about. Even genetically, since European Jews are between actual Europeans and Levantines, but with an European history, its just the most logical thing to don't actually include them into regular European, but call them European Jews as a special grouping. You can't just put them into regular "Near Eastern" or "Levantine" in my opinion, that would be even more wrong for Ashkenazi Jews.
    I think the most logical and neutral approach is the one from FTDNA, using "Jewish Diaspora" as a category of its own with the respective subgroupings. That's the best solution in my opinion.

  12. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     Alain (09-20-2020),  Cascio (07-28-2020),  loxias (09-20-2020),  witness (07-04-2021)

  13. #7
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,512
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Ashkenazi Jew
    Y-DNA (P)
    Q-YP3924
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a1b1a
    mtDNA (P)
    K2a2a

    Israel Israel Jerusalem Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I see and recognise this point, but I personally find it insulting to see Turkish Jews classed as 'European Jews' considering they've lived in Turkey for over 500 years and had long lived under dhimitude, ie second-class citizen. To me it doesn't matter if they attest that their ancestors fled the 1492 Spanish Inquisition. What, so some Syrian and Egyptian Jews are European imposters too? This is why most Jews once they give it a good think, would probably rather the term 'Western' over 'European' Jew.
    The thing is though, that the ethnogenesis of Ashkenazi Jews as they are today occurred in Europe, in a German speaking land during the Middle Ages. I mean some hallmarks of Ashkenazi culture such as Yiddish derive from this, as well as many of the religious aspects that defined Ashkenazi life such as Hasidic movement and religious learning etc. - all happened in Northern Europe. Genetically also, the Mediterranean forefathers of Ashkenazi Jews admixed, albeit very little, with Slavs and other Northwestern Europeans, before and after a sever genetic bottleneck - which also occurred in Europe.

    So while genetically we do not overlap with the European people which we and our ancestors have been living for more than a 1,000 years, our ethno-genesis did happen in Europe.

    Same goes for Sephardic Jews - just in the Iberian peninsula, which, last time I checked, is also European.

    So any Jew, even outside of Europe, which has any significant ancestry of these two (along with Italian Jews), can rightfully be assigned "European Jew" in that specific aspect.

    However, a good question is whether or not Roma/Gypsies also get assigned "Europe" or not. I know that they lived less time than Ashkenazi Jews did in Europe, but essentially there is no reason why people with Sinti or Roma background won't get assigned, on 23andMe, "European -> European Roma". And from a quick search I did, they don't - their ancestry gets broken down to European and West Asian and South Asian. This is even more frustrating when in most of their results, you see that they are predominantly North/East European.

    This is why I don't see a reason why Ashkenazi, Sephardi etc. ancestry can't also be broken down. I do understand that genetically speaking, two Ashkenazim are much more tightly related than two Roma individuals - and in fact so close that Ashkenazi Jews can be considered their own ethnicity. But considering we know Ashkenazi Jews overlap with other Western Jews and also share uniparental subclades with them - I do believe it'll do us all much favor if they'll introduce a category called "Western Jews".
    Check out my Hidden Content

  14. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-12-2020),  Angoliga (07-27-2020),  btree (07-28-2020),  Cabaon (06-13-2021),  JMcB (07-27-2020),  loxias (09-20-2020),  Michalis Moriopoulos (07-27-2020),  Power77 (06-26-2021),  Seabass (07-27-2020),  witness (07-04-2021)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,070
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    However, a good question is whether or not Roma/Gypsies also get assigned "Europe" or not. I know that they lived less time than Ashkenazi Jews did in Europe, but essentially there is no reason why people with Sinti or Roma background won't get assigned, on 23andMe, "European -> European Roma". And from a quick search I did, they don't - their ancestry gets broken down to European and West Asian and South Asian. This is even more frustrating when in most of their results, you see that they are predominantly North/East European.

    This is why I don't see a reason why Ashkenazi, Sephardi etc. ancestry can't also be broken down. I do understand that genetically speaking, two Ashkenazim are much more tightly related than two Roma individuals - and in fact so close that Ashkenazi Jews can be considered their own ethnicity. But considering we know Ashkenazi Jews overlap with other Western Jews and also share uniparental subclades with them - I do believe it'll do us all much favor if they'll introduce a category called "Western Jews".
    Ashkenazi Jews form their own ethnicity, genetically speaking. Roma are their own ethnicity too, but they are much more diverse. They get to know more about their recent admixture than Ashkenazi Jews do, because some are actually way more European than others.

    This is even more frustrating when in most of their results, you see that they are predominantly North/East European.
    In the G25 Roma samples, only the Roma from Barcelona are more than 50 percent of European descent. The others are not. If you consider the demographic situation of the Roma population in Europe, the vast majority lives in Eastern-Central and South Eastern Europe and those are surely not more European genetically than the rest of the samples in G25. I remember a study on Serbian Roma, on which the Balkan sample seems to be based on, since they are about 1/3 Serbian, and they have of all classic Roma groups the highest autosomal and yDNA European input in Eastern-Central and South Eastern Europe. This further decreases from Serbia -> Romania -> Slovakia. So I don't agree with Roma scoring more European at all. Those which might do are not part of the core group of Roma from Central-Eastern Europe. This is like saying the same about Ashkenazi Jews by basing the argument on recently mixed American Jewish people. Some Roma groups, like some from Iberia, are much more mixed and European in comparison, but they are not representative.

    Compare with this yDNA study which makes the regional differences fairly obvious:


    Up to 63% of Roma show a founder lineage, and from those 30% show founder non-H Indian lineages. More than 44% of the Roma individuals belonged to the Indian H-M52 haplogroup (including H-M82), ranging from 64% in the Balkan Peninsula to 21% in Spain (Supplementary Figure S1). In contrast, the frequency of haplogroup H was extremely low among non-Roma (1% in Bulgaria and 0.6% in Slovakia). It reached 5.3% in the non-Roma Hungarian population, although these individuals might actually be of Roma origin.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015201

    In G25 we have no proper sample yet for the "core Roma" population, since even the Balkan sample used is more mixed than what to expect from places with less local European admixture and the local admixture isn't the same everywhere.
    Last edited by Riverman; 07-27-2020 at 10:19 AM.

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     DgidguBidgu (07-27-2020),  Erikl86 (07-27-2020)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    225
    Sex

    Living DNA seems to me to be the most accurate when it comes to Jews. On Living DNA Ashkenazi Jews usually score about half European (south italy) and half Near East, which makes way more sense (genetically and historically) than strictly "European" imo. Sephardic Jews also score about half European (iberia) and half Near East. I think these other companies label Jews as "Europeans" for political and cultural reasons rather than genetics. Even GEDMATCH results of Jews show their significant Middle eastern ancestry that many companies just refuse to give them.
    Last edited by Aiden; 07-27-2020 at 10:22 AM.

  18. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Aiden For This Useful Post:

     DgidguBidgu (07-27-2020),  StrandsofHistory (02-11-2021),  witness (07-04-2021)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    661
    Sex

    Scotland England Australia Star of David Turkey Egypt
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    So any Jew, even outside of Europe, which has any significant ancestry of these two (along with Italian Jews), can rightfully be assigned "European Jew" in that specific aspect.
    The bizaree thing is I'd say majority of Sephardic Jews from Turkey cannot actually prove with hard evidence a genealogical link going back to Spain. For all I know perhaps the same can be said for maybe some remote Yiddish speaking Eastern Ashkenazi communities who cannot trace themselves back to Germany. So why are people quite eager to readily link Jews to a country in which their ethnogenesis took place 500-800 years ago depending which group, but not Israel? A Sephardic Jew and a Ashkenazi Jew are genetically closer to a Palestinian than either a Spaniard or German. This is why I rather avoid this whole 'Middle Eastern' or 'European' assignment to Jews altogether, as it just creates a big headache more than anything. As you're probably aware, classing Ashkenazi Jews as 'European' in 23andme adds 20% European to some non-Ashkenazi Jews (with no known Ashkenazi) which ofcourse isn't meaningful in anyway.

    It's not the ethnogenesis taking place in Europe I'm disputing, but the appropriateness of labeling Jews as 'European Jews'. How a Jew wants to self-identity is fine.
    Last edited by Seabass; 07-27-2020 at 10:32 AM.

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Seabass For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-12-2020),  Power77 (06-26-2021),  witness (07-04-2021)

Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 102
    Last Post: 01-05-2019, 08:31 AM
  2. "Roman DNA" "Anglo-Saxon DNA" "Viking DNA"
    By RandomUsernameGuy in forum General
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 12-23-2018, 07:25 PM
  3. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 01-30-2017, 09:51 PM
  4. Replies: 43
    Last Post: 01-18-2015, 02:11 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •