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Thread: Why do most DNA testing companies label Jews as "European"?

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    Yeah, but do note the increasing distances in my analyses as you move towards the north in Italy.
    I totally agree, but your table does suggest that Lombardy and the northeastern section of Italy has very low East Med/Levantine/Caucasus components compared even to the Tuscany of my ancestors, let alone further south in Italy.

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  3. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    I totally agree, but your table does suggest that Lombardy and the northeastern section of Italy has very low East Med/Levantine/Caucasus components compared even to the Tuscany of my ancestors, let alone further south in Italy.
    I think the northern shifted element of North Italy is not neccesary Germanic but it can also be Gaul/Celtic. Also the Northeast parts near the border with Slovenia have a Slavic shift.

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  5. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    I think the northern shifted element of North Italy is not neccesary Germanic but it can also be Gaul/Celtic. Also the Northeast parts near the border with Slovenia have a Slavic shift.
    We definitely need much more info on pre-Roman, Roman and Late Antiquity Northern Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    I think the northern shifted element of North Italy is not neccesary Germanic but it can also be Gaul/Celtic. Also the Northeast parts near the border with Slovenia have a Slavic shift.
    Probably includes both Celtic and Germanic elements and for NE Italy also Slavic elements given the variety in Y-DNA haplogroups, though in the case of Celtic it is harder to differentiate the R1b subclades from Italic.

    For R1b subclades, see:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2010146
    Hidden Content

    Own Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32042>FGC 32049; Nigde, Turkey
    Own mtDNA: X2e2a3; Drama, Greece
    Maternal Y-DNA: R1a>Y40>YP294>BY90442; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5o; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32042; Nigde, Turkey

    Ālim-i Rūm (Scholar of Hidden Content )

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  9. #75
    yes they are mutally exclusive

  10. #76
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    https://forward.com/news/377499/can-...-a-good-thing/

    Though genome tests may not sway one’s sense of Jewish identity, they have become popular at a moment when Jews are talking more and more about what Judaism is: Is it a race? Are Jews white? The movie Wonder Woman starring Israeli Gal Gadot, a fair-skinned Jew of Eastern European descent, triggered an online debate about whether Israelis could be considered people of color.



    https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/yes-...ople-of-color/

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    This is irrelevant. For one thing, being "European" and being "white" are not equivalent concepts. Whiteness is a sociocultural construct that cannot be objectively measured. Nor can "Europeanness", for that matter, though to the degree that we can estimate where a person's ancestors lived geographically over a given period of time, we could establish a classification system based on temporal parameters. As has already been discussed in this thread, Ashkenazi Jews are "European" in so far as their pre-20th century ancestry within the past millennium can overwhelmingly be traced to locations agreed upon as existing within Europe. If we broaden the temporal parameters to include the past two millennia, however, the picture is a lot less clear.

    "Whiteness", on the other hand, is a highly variable and unscientific concept (which is not to say that it doesn't have its usefulness in sociological terms). Within a North American context, most Ashkenazi Jews have been mainstreamed to be included within popular definitions of "white", though that wasn't always the case. Up until the early 1950s, Jewish immigrants were variously classified as "Hebrews" or "Israelites" on the race category on immigration and naturalization documents, though for census purposes they might be classified as "white". Whether or not they were regarded as white by the surrounding society has always been a completely subjective matter and dependent on a number of different factors.

    "Person of color" has only become a widespread term in North America relatively recently, and it likewise has no basis in measurable criteria. It roughly means a "person who isn't white", but if we cannot agree on what "whiteness" is, nor can we agree on exactly who is and isn't a "person of color". I won't elaborate on this point though, as it is very much tied up in current sociopolitical issues that shouldn't be discussed on this forum.

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  13. #78
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    Thats because Jews gene wise is not a race. Persian Jews would cluster around Persians, Russian Jews around Russians, Ethiopian Jews with African horn and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shujauddin View Post
    Thats because Jews gene wise is not a race. Persian Jews would cluster around Persians, Russian Jews around Russians, Ethiopian Jews with African horn and so on.
    Absolutely not. Persian Jews cluster vaguely near Persians but they are really more Mesopotamian shifted than anything. Russian Jews do not score anything like Russians.
    Last edited by Cynic; 06-13-2021 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Clarification

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shujauddin View Post
    Thats because Jews gene wise is not a race. Persian Jews would cluster around Persians, Russian Jews around Russians, Ethiopian Jews with African horn and so on.
    Would you be kind enough to show us where the Russian non-Jews are on this plot?

     


    I have a hard time finding them for some reason... And while you're at it, I'd also appreciate it if you could show us the Persians here:

     


    Or indeed, why both of those clusters aren't all that far from the Levant all things considered (or indeed, other Mediterranean populations like the Ancient Greeks):



    Thanks in advance.
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    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
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