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Thread: Why do most DNA testing companies label Jews as "European"?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Incorrect. Ashkenazim as such didn't exist 2500 years ago. Certainly in the past 1000 years, the majority of the ancestors of modern Ashkenazim lived in Europe, and possibly within the past 1500 years, though medieval Ashkenazi communities continued to receive migrants from the Middle East well into the Middle Ages. No doubt a portion of Ashkenazi Jews' ancestors was already living within the modern boundaries of Europe 2500 years ago, but exactly what portion is debatable, and in any case this would have been long before the ethnogenesis of the community.
    Sorry. I wasn't clear. The original first wave of Jews arrived into Europe from the Middle east about 2500 years ago, right?
    "

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azbuzz View Post
    Sorry. I wasn't clear. The original first wave of Jews arrived into Europe from the Middle east about 2500 years ago, right?
    Sort of, I suppose. 2500 years ago the bulk of world Jewry (to use an anachronistic term) lived between the Levant and Mesopotamia, but I believe it wasn't long after that, about 2400 years ago, that the first Jewish communities appeared in Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiden View Post
    I must admit, I was wrong, at least in regards to the Ashkenazi

    The same graph I made with labels showing different pulls:

    vectors.jpg

    I think if Ashkenazim were a mix of northern Euro+levantine as opposed to southern European+Levantine, they'd be firmly in the European cluster.
    Last edited by Cynic; 06-14-2021 at 06:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    I think if Ashkenazim were a mix of northern Euro+levantine as opposed to southern European+Levantine, they'd be firmly in the European cluster.
    For sure. People who are half NW European, half Ashkenazi/Sephardi will be closest to Northern or Central Italians. Half NW European, half Levantines will generally be closest to Central or Southern Italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    The same graph I made with labels showing different pulls:

    vectors.jpg

    I think if Ashkenazim were a mix of northern Euro+levantine as opposed to southern European+Levantine, they'd be firmly in the European cluster.
    the EEF arrow should be WHG, thats where it goes if you continue the line, the basque have one of the highest WHG levels, and the Sardinians have the highest EEF.

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    Jews are half european half ME, they should have their own genetic clusterm IMHO.

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  12. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    The same graph I made with labels showing different pulls:


    I think if Ashkenazim were a mix of northern Euro+levantine as opposed to southern European+Levantine, they'd be firmly in the European cluster.
    Depending on the percentages, because in the Levantine - European Mediterranean model, the percentage of the later European Mediterranean contribution would be far higher. Also, I don't think those two scenarios are mutually exclusive, rather there were different pulse and constant low level admixtures in different places at different times. Like I don't think that both Jewish and Frankish Medieval sources would have been writing against proselytism, if there was none of significant proportions. Yet it is absolutely clear that a major contribution to the Jewish gene pool came from Judeo-Christian early communities, which were still undecided as to where they belong and of which a good number seems to have decided to stick with more traditional Judaism instead of breaking up with it.
    From my point of view, a lot of this sort of Eastern Mediterranean and Hellenistic, Greco-Roman admixture should have been fairly widespread and not restricted to Ashkenazi Jews. This means that especially Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews should share a good portion of it. Its the more Northern admixture, possibly also from other sources, which is more Ashkenazi specific however.
    That's where it would be interesting to look out for:
    - typical Greco-Roman haplogroups being shared by both Ashkenazi and Sephardi
    - how many typical North Western and Eastern European haplotypes appear in Ashkenazi vs. Sephardi
    - more exotic admixtures specific to one or more Jewish subgroups, based on haplogroup frequencies.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-14-2021 at 09:45 AM. Reason: typo

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  14. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Depending on the percentages, because in the Levantine - European Mediterranean model, the percentage of the later European Mediterranean contribution would be far higher. Also, I don't think those two scenarios are mutually exclusive, rather there were different pulse and constant low level admixtures in different places at different times. Like I don't think that both Jewish and Frankish Medieval sources would have been writing against proselytism, if there was none of significant proportions. Yet it is absolutely clear that a major contribution to the Jewish gene pool came from Judeo-Christian early communities, which were still undecided as to where they belong and of which a good number seems to have decided to stick with more traditional Judaism instead of breaking up with it.
    From my point of view, a lot of this sort of Eastern Mediterranean and Hellenistic, Greco-Roman admixture should have been fairly widespread and not restricted to Ashkenazi Jews. This means that especially Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews should share a good portion of it. Its the more Northern admixture, possibly also from other sources, which is more Ashkenazi specific however.
    That's where it would be interesting to look out for:
    - typical Greco-Roman haplogroups being shared by both Ashkenazi and Sephardi
    - how many typical North Western and Eastern European haplotypes appear in Ashkenazi vs. Sephardi
    - more exotic admixtures specific to one or more Jewish subgroups, based on haplogroup frequencies.
    Up till now I was under the impression that Ashkenazim were a roughly 50-50 mix between Near Eastern and European with the European being mostly southern with a dash of central/eastern Euro. The model I ran using Italians+Levantine groups seems to show them as being much less Near Eastern than I thought and I’m sure if we threw in a Greek group in there the proportion of WANA ancestry would only drop further in the model.

    What am I doing wrong? Is the premise wrong? Are Jews actually more Euro med than we realized?

  15. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Up till now I was under the impression that Ashkenazim were a roughly 50-50 mix between Near Eastern and European with the European being mostly southern with a dash of central/eastern Euro. The model I ran using Italians+Levantine groups seems to show them as being much less Near Eastern than I thought and I’m sure if we threw in a Greek group in there the proportion of WANA ancestry would only drop further in the model.

    What am I doing wrong? Is the premise wrong? Are Jews actually more Euro med than we realized?
    To begin with, the Near Eastern and Levantine modern populations must not be exactly the same as they were at the time of the ancient Hebrews. So the only way to know how ancient Israelites score genetically is to test them, in large enough numbers, with their ancestors and neighbours. Most post-Islamisation Near Easterners have a specific Arab and Subsaharan contribution the ancient Levantines had not, or at least not at the same level.

    The next thing is that we can end up with a similar position on any given PCA with quite different ancestral components. Quite often the make up some calculators propose as being the most likely scenario is in fact not the truth, but just an artefact of the algorithm, because something is missing in the options or parameters.

    Also I don't know what is the truth, but I think we have to go for uniparentals and more ancient DNA, like in the many other cases of that kind (origin of the Germanics, Celts, Slavs, Romanians, Roma people etc.) to be sure. Many modern populations which might look similar superficially might, if there is no sufficient IBD and uniparentals sharing, not be the right, the true source group. If it would be easier, we would have answered all those questions to the satisfaction of most readers long time ago.

    So its possible that the Ashkenazi people got quite a high European Mediterranean contribution and little Near Eastern, but at this point we don't really know and the uniparentals seem to tell a different story, so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    For sure. People who are half NW European, half Ashkenazi/Sephardi will be closest to Northern or Central Italians. Half NW European, half Levantines will generally be closest to Central or Southern Italians.
    Somebody called?

    Distance to: DewslothDad_scaled [German+British+Belgian+Rhine Ashkenazi+Swiss German]
    0.01368184 French_Alsace
    0.01368726 French_Nord
    0.01376350 Belgian
    0.01538859 Swiss_German
    0.01624357 French_Paris
    0.01893691 French_Pas-de-Calais
    0.02228231 French_Occitanie
    0.02344059 French_Seine-Maritime
    0.02365389 French_Auvergne
    0.02589940 French_Brittany
    0.02611134 Swiss_French
    0.02617765 Afrikaner
    0.02699974 German
    0.02819105 French_Provence
    0.02847689 Austrian

    Distance to: DewslothMom_scaled [Lebanese Chr + a little Armenian]
    0.01677597 Druze
    0.01725206 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    0.01725244 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
    0.01967495 Lebanese_Druze
    0.02020828 Lebanese_Christian
    0.02514901 Cypriot
    0.02539458 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    0.02563325 Syrian_West
    0.02810177 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.02921977 Karaite_Egypt
    0.03063383 Syrian_Jew
    0.03280560 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
    0.03285842 Cypriot_B
    0.03405758 Iraqi_Jew
    0.03853289 Armenian_B


    Distance to: Dewsloth_scaled
    0.02599522 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02603330 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02708736 Italian_Molise
    0.02791267 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.02817982 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.02864868 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.02912729 Italian_Marche
    0.02935435 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02996741 Greek_Izmir
    0.03004210 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.03037247 Italian_Apulia
    0.03064445 Italian_Campania
    0.03119621 Italian_Umbria
    0.03129497 Sicilian_West
    0.03259530 Sicilian_East
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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