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Thread: Why do most DNA testing companies label Jews as "European"?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I treat Greeks and Turks the same way. I have all the Sephardim colored European blue in my G25 copy only because I don't know which ones are Turkish Jews and which are from Balkan countries. The Romaniotes used to be transcontinental but only the community in Greece survived so all Romaniotes are European Jews these days by happenstance.
    So the Smyrna Greeks and Smyrna Jews would also be coloured blue? So long as you are consistent, I guess that's the main thing that matters, I guess both without a doubt do also descend from migrants crossing over from the Balkan peninsula.

    But Greeks, Turks, and Western Jews are transcontinental groups at the meta-ethnic level.
    That's true, also baffling that Western Jews (excluding those with known Mizrahi) of three have the smallest amount of genetic range (not genetic diversity, due to African admixture) among one another despite inhabiting a bigger geographic and continental range than Greeks and Turks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    So the Smyrna Greeks and Smyrna Jews would also be coloured blue? So long as you are consistent, I guess that's the main thing that matters, I guess both without a doubt do also descend from migrants crossing over from the Balkan peninsula
    I have the Western Anatolian Greeks and Dodecanese colored West Asian green; that's just provisional until we understand how and when those pops formed. I'm pretty sure the Dodecanese culture/gene pool has been in place since before the 1500s so they're probably going to stay green. As for the Smyrniotes I'm not so sure yet. The mainland Balkan admixture they have may have occurred in the modern era or it might predate it. We'll have to see. A little modern era admixture won't move the needle for me, but if it's to the point of being genetically/culturally significant, then yeah, I'd consider them to be the result of post-Columbian activity (just like Pontics and Cappadocians into Northern Greece after the Exchange).

    As for Smyrna Jews, yes, I'd have them colored blue since they're apparently just Balkan Romaniotes who came to Smyrna well into the 1500s.

    Testimonies of Sephardi Jews arriving in Smyrna during the 16th century suggest the existence of a local small Romaniot Jewish community. The first Jews arrived in Izmir in the 1530s, following their expulsion (sürgün, in Turkish) by the Ottomans from Belgrade, Serbia, in 1521, and Buda, Hungary, in 1524. Gravestones with Jewish motifs dating from 1540 and 1565 and found in Izmir indicate a Jewish presence in the city during the 16th century.
    EDIT: And then it looks like there was Sephardic movement into the area later, but I know next to nothing about the details of that.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 07-28-2020 at 07:03 AM.
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    I should reiterate that I don't have a strong opinion about how to continentally classify post-Columbian diaspora groups. My contention is merely that extant groups whose culture/gene pool has been anchored to a particular area since before the 1500s should automatically be considered native to that area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I have the Western Anatolian Greeks and Dodecanese colored West Asian green; that's just provisional until we understand how and when those pops formed. I'm pretty sure the Dodecanese culture/gene pool has been in place since before the 1500s so they're probably going to stay green. As for the Smyrniotes I'm not so sure yet. The mainland Balkan admixture they have may have occurred in the modern era or it might predate it. We'll have to see. A little modern era admixture won't move the needle for me, but if it's to the point of being genetically/culturally significant, then yeah, I'd consider them to be the result of post-Columbian activity (just like Pontics and Cappadocians into Northern Greece after the Exchange).

    As for Smyrna Jews, yes, I'd have them colored blue since they're apparently just Balkan Romaniotes who came to Smyrna well into the 1500s.
    No worries, I'd have to respectfully disagree with you here that you're applying a fair assessment of Jews and Greeks.

    I could just as easily say any part of Turkey south of the Sea of Marmara is West Asian and does not include Dodocanese Greek Islands regardless their proximity. Perhaps the Dodocanese genepool/culture has remained intact since the last 500 years, but I can also vouch that Eastern Sephardic Jews have not noticeably mixed with Europeans but instead other Jewish groups.

    Greek Kos Islanders And Eastern Sephardic Jews have a very similar level of Steppe pretty interestingly, but than some differences in their ratio of regional Mediterranean and West Asian ancestral origins, the most obvious difference being just about zero Berber in Kos Islanders.

    I did these PCA's to illustrate why the 'European' labels don't make much sense for the Greek and Jewish minorities of Anatolia.

    Dimensions 1 & 2
    Anatolian inhabitants dimension 1 & 2.JPG

    Dimensions 1 & 3
    Anatolian inhabitants dimension 1 & 3.JPG
    Last edited by Seabass; 07-28-2020 at 07:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I could just as easily say any part of Turkey south of the Sea of Marmara is West Asian
    You'd be right, wouldn't you? The only part of Turkey that isn't in Asia is Thrace (and Imbros), no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    and does not include Dodocanese Greek Islands regardless their proximity.
    Geographically, I consider the Dodecanese and a good part of the NE Aegean islands to be Asiatic islands. They are clearly off the coast of Anatolia, not the Balkans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I can also vouch that Eastern Sephardic Jews have not noticeably mixed with Europeans but instead other Jewish groups.
    Cool. My contention is that if these groups existed basically as they are in a particular area before the 1500s, I'd consider them native to that area-- no questions asked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I did these PCA's to illustrate why the 'European' labels don't make much sense for the Greek and Jewish minorities of Anatolia.
    Like I said, Greeks and Jews at the general level are transcontinental. I agree with Riverman that if you want to underscore the relatedness of these groups, we have good terms to do just that: Turkish Sephardim may be Asiatic and Balkan Sephardim European, but both are also Western Jews. Rhodians may be geographically Asiatic and Cretans European, but both are Aegean Greeks. So if we want to emphasize that, there's no reason we can't.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 07-28-2020 at 07:27 AM.
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    Israel Jerusalem
    It's because most of the customers aren't Jews, but gentiles, who the second they find out they have Jewish ancestry, follow up with the question: "From where?".
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I did these PCA's to illustrate why the 'European' labels don't make much sense for the Greek and Jewish minorities of Anatolia.
    I will concede that significant admixture going on between European and Asian Greeks into the modern era in places like Anatolia would basically mean these groups are the result of modern era movements. So they would not really covered under my pre-Columbian umbrella at that point. But I'm not sure that it is actually true for these groups. It could certainly be true, but I don't really know.
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aha View Post
    Because for the most part they are:


    Not very different from southern Europeans. Also lived there for more than almost two thousand years.
    When you have no north European references, you'll just show how Ashkenazim plot relative to South Europeans.

    It's also overfit with half the G25 sheet, while still managing to miss the relevant references for the southern categories.
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    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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    Just did some digging. In the G25, these Sephardic samples are apparently Turkish:

    GRC12118097
    GRC12118122
    GRC12118128

    While these are Bulgarian:

    sephardic14bul
    sephardic16bul

    But I can't find anything about these:

    SephardicJew24276
    SephardicJew24402
    SephardicJew4953
    SephardicJew24032
    SephardicJew24392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I see and recognise this point, but I personally find it insulting to see Turkish Jews classed as 'European Jews' considering they've lived in Turkey for over 500 years and had long lived under dhimitude, ie second-class citizen. To me it doesn't matter if they attest that their ancestors fled the 1492 Spanish Inquisition. What, so some Syrian and Egyptian Jews are European imposters too? This is why most Jews once they give it a good think, would probably rather the term 'Western' over 'European' Jew.
    How does dhimitude make you insulted by the European Jewish label?
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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