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Thread: Questions about SSA/ANA admixture among north africans

  1. #1
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    Questions about SSA/ANA admixture among north africans

    I saw some users stating that the ANA ancestry among north africans should be interpreted as fully "ssa" which implies that I'm around 13%-17% "SSA' depending on the model. Being a bit more northern shifted than the average moroccan that would imply that the average moroccan on g25 is around 17%-22% SSA.

    So should ANA admixture be interpreted as fully "SSA" genetically ? If yes why doesn't it impact our phenotypes ? Compared to modern "quadroons", north africans look way more "caucasoid/eurasian" especially riffians and kabyles


    here my results :

    Target: Nassbean_scaled
    Distance: 2.3930% / 0.02393013
    34.6 Iberia_N
    25.6 MAR_EN
    18.6 Levant_PPNC
    11.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    5.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    4.8 SSA

    Target: Nassbean_scaled
    Distance: 2.9504% / 0.02950412
    46.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    27.4 MAR_Iberomaurusian
    11.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.6 Yoruba
    4.8 Levant_Natufian
    1.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.6 WHG

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    I'm not an expert by any means, but I think the reason some users might say that has to do with this study (see pg 14 for the graph with Taforalt):
    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...e_ShumLaka.pdf

    The reasoning may follow along the lines of a post made by a user here at the top of the page from this link:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....delling/page16

    From what I've gathered from your post, you are wondering why Moroccans often don't look like people in the Americas who may be ~20% SSA? Well, ignoring the wide range of phenotypes that people with this ancestry have, I think this is probably due to a variety of reasons and one of them probably involves the term SSA. There are various phenotypes within this region and they haven't just all existed unchanged since the dawn of time, but have changed over time due to environmental adaptation and intermixing with other groups (whether other Africans or not). I'm unsure if we know what Taforalt people looked like to make conclusions that, being roughly a quarter SSA from Taforalt (if we were to call Taforalt such), the average Moroccans you're talking about should look like someone who also has around as much SSA ancestry from west central Africa as the hypothetical mixed person from the Americas that we're imagining. The point I'm making may be better illustrated by thinking about whether you expect someone who derives half their ancestry from the ǃKung and half from the Netherlands to look "the same" as someone half Dinka and half Dutch?
    However, if we are to work on the assumption that people from Taforalt looked "stereotypically SSA", then there may also be a case for selection having occurred amongst your north African ancestors wherein features dissimilar to the "stereotypical SSA" model were instead favoured.

    Personally, I wouldn't worry about attaching that part of your ancestry to SSA or not. It's indigenous to Africa and that would be good enough for me .

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    Because it's not. ANA is deeper than Basal Eurasian but yet on the same tree root as other Eurasian components.

    It's native to North Africa, pre OOA event, yet closer to Eurasian than SSA. Add it, Iberomaurusian/Taforalt skulls by anthropologists were classified as Mechtoid, they could easily distinguish between the incoming Capsians and SSA.

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    I'm North Moroccan (Riffian) and I have only 3% of Basal west African SSA just the same as ancient guanches (mainly Guanche11)

    117301233_3534201043292636_5023331679016944792_n.jpg
    Last edited by sami15; 08-25-2020 at 05:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
    I'm not an expert by any means, but I think the reason some users might say that has to do with this study (see pg 14 for the graph with Taforalt):
    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...e_ShumLaka.pdf

    The reasoning may follow along the lines of a post made by a user here at the top of the page from this link:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....delling/page16

    From what I've gathered from your post, you are wondering why Moroccans often don't look like people in the Americas who may be ~20% SSA? Well, ignoring the wide range of phenotypes that people with this ancestry have, I think this is probably due to a variety of reasons and one of them probably involves the term SSA. There are various phenotypes within this region and they haven't just all existed unchanged since the dawn of time, but have changed over time due to environmental adaptation and intermixing with other groups (whether other Africans or not). I'm unsure if we know what Taforalt people looked like to make conclusions that, being roughly a quarter SSA from Taforalt (if we were to call Taforalt such), the average Moroccans you're talking about should look like someone who also has around as much SSA ancestry from west central Africa as the hypothetical mixed person from the Americas that we're imagining. The point I'm making may be better illustrated by thinking about whether you expect someone who derives half their ancestry from the ǃKung and half from the Netherlands to look "the same" as someone half Dinka and half Dutch?
    However, if we are to work on the assumption that people from Taforalt looked "stereotypically SSA", then there may also be a case for selection having occurred amongst your north African ancestors wherein features dissimilar to the "stereotypical SSA" model were instead favoured.

    Personally, I wouldn't worry about attaching that part of your ancestry to SSA or not. It's indigenous to Africa and that would be good enough for me .

    Thank you but based on what you posted it seems north africans should have more ssa (if taforalt is being modelled as 45% ANA) which seems unlikely and we actually know that iberomaurusians were mostly west eurasian and were "caucasoid" (craniometrically speaking). They didn't have the SNPs for light skin but they had the ones for straight hair (overall they were of the cro-magnoid type similar to what we find in Europe during the Paleolithic).

    In terms of reconstruction this is what we have (just the skin color is inaccurate) :




    these people had around 45% or 30% (?) of their dna being ANA

    And I understand your argument but it doesn't change the fact that negroid features and dark skin alleles should impact our phenotypes no matter the existing diversity and yes I have no problem with it being african but I just want to know exactly my "SSA" admixture because between 4-6% and 13-17% there is a large gap. Anyway thank you for you intervention !

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    From the Shum Laka paper, if 47% of Taforalt is Ancient Ancestral North African, and if this component is SSA (not saying it is, I don't know) that's almost half of whatever Iberomaurisian you score + Yoruba/Dinka. This seems to be the case on current intra-African PCAs : 5% Yoruba/Dinka Egyptian Copt or Iraqi with 15% Yoruba/Dinka [there is one on the G25] will plot much further from the African cline then say, a North Moroccan with 5% Yoruba/Dinka but 30% Iberomaurusian. Whether or not this pull just reflects the AANA ancestry in West-Africans etc we don't know yet, but the PCA makes it clear that currently, it acts as extra SSA affinity. Phenotype discussion is a pointless endeavour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Because it's not. ANA is deeper than Basal Eurasian but yet on the same tree root as other Eurasian components.

    It's native to North Africa, pre OOA event, yet closer to Eurasian than SSA. Add it, Iberomaurusian/Taforalt skulls by anthropologists were classified as Mechtoid, they could easily distinguish between the incoming Capsians and SSA.
    Interesting but some members defended the idea that even this basal eurasian should be seen as "black" because closer to SSA pops when it comes to their phenotypes and taforalt being distinct craniometrically is maybe due to the fact that they were mostly west eurasian (dzudzuana-like)

    What do you think ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nassbean View Post
    Interesting but some members defended the idea that even this basal eurasian should be seen as "black" because closer to SSA pops when it comes to their phenotypes and taforalt being distinct craniometrically is maybe due to the fact that they were mostly west eurasian (dzudzuana-like)

    What do you think ?
    Nah, the gracilization happened due to Dzudzuana-like. The craniometrically Mechtoids were quite disntinctive from SSA-heavy people and Dzudzuana-like people.

    Because it's a deep ancestry, they just imply/assume wrongly it's SSA. I am not saying it's Eurasian, on contrary. But it's very different from SSA aswell who have various layers of different admixtures. The Shum Laka samples have some kind of archaic Y-DNA (A00 something).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaYamamoto View Post
    From the Shum Laka paper, if 47% of Taforalt is Ancient Ancestral North African, and if this component is SSA (not saying it is, I don't know) that's almost half of whatever Iberomaurisian you score + Yoruba/Dinka. This seems to be the case on current intra-African PCAs : 5% Yoruba/Dinka Egyptian Copt or Iraqi with 15% Yoruba/Dinka [there is one on the G25] will plot much further from the African cline then say, a North Moroccan with 5% Yoruba/Dinka but 30% Iberomaurusian. Whether or not this pull just reflects the AANA ancestry in West-Africans etc we don't know yet, but the PCA makes it clear that currently, it acts as extra SSA affinity. Phenotype discussion is a pointless endeavour.
    thank you and can you post an example for this PCA because in my case on all PCAs I'm more northern shifted than egyptians like many other north moroccans but yes I agree it would clearly imply SSA affinity for this component.

    And why do you think it is a pointless endeavour when it comes to phenotype ? Because it's too old to impact it ? I mean all populations with clear SSA admixture show signs of it on their phenotype

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nassbean View Post
    Thank you but based on what you posted it seems north africans should have more ssa (if taforalt is being modelled as 45% ANA) which seems unlikely and we actually know that iberomaurusians were mostly west eurasian and were "caucasoid" (craniometrically speaking). They didn't have the SNPs for light skin but they had the ones for straight hair (overall they were of the cro-magnoid type similar to what we find in Europe during the Paleolithic).

    In terms of reconstruction this is what we have (just the skin color is inaccurate) :




    these people had around 45% or 30% (?) of their dna being ANA

    And I understand your argument but it doesn't change the fact that negroid features and dark skin alleles should impact our phenotypes no matter the existing diversity and yes I have no problem with it being african but I just want to know exactly my "SSA" admixture because between 4-6% and 13-17% there is a large gap. Anyway thank you for you intervention !
    I see what you mean, and as I'm out of my depth here I think I'll sit back and read the others' posts. May I ask what you are defining as SSA? Is it all genetic components located south of the Sahara today? Is it only people with "negroid features" as you said? I think you may be overestimating the effect of maybe ~25% of an ancestral component at most in many people on phenotype regardless.

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