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Thread: Albanian J-ZS241 Big Y-700 result

  1. #1
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    Albanian J-ZS241 Big Y-700 result

    Hi all!

    My Big Y-700 results have finally come in and they are rather interesting. I have tested positive for Y3081 (ZS241) and its phyloequivalent SNPs, I am also positive for two rather unique SNPs under ZS241: BY32817 and BY32820. Both these SNPs are phyloequivalent to J-BY32809 and are also shared by two other samples, both of whom are of English origin and have no knowledge of foreign paternal ancestry. However, it seems that I am negative for BY32809 itself and a few of the other SNPs, so I should split the branch further. I will upload to Yfull soon and see how far back my TMRCA with these two samples is, one of them has already uploaded to Yfull and is classified as J-Y3081*.

    Here's my Y-DNA Haplotree:



    I was wondering if any of you had an idea or theory on how and when this line may have entered the Balkans? I personally would suggest a possible Roman expansion, however it'll be hard to know for sure without uploading to Yfull and seeing how distant my relation to the J-BY32809 samples is.

    I should also note that FTDNA has incorrectly assigned my terminal SNP as J-BY223621, which is a downstream of FGC11>Y10887. This is due to the fact that the BY223621 SNP itself has some stability issues which make it unreliable. I have contacted FTDNA to change this assignment and fix my Block Tree. So for now, this classification should just be ignored.

    Thanks
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  3. #2
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    Congrats! Very interesting result (basal J-ZS241).

    I guess our hesitation, as suggested by a couple of non modal values, to not classify you any deeper than J-ZS241 without further testing turned out correct

    I just checked your BigY results. You are indeed positive for ZS241, Y3081 plus other equivalents. And positive for 5 out of 30 SNPs shared by the Englishmen.
    So you will form a subclade defined by SNPs: BY32817, BY32820, BY32833, BY32835, BZ595, which will be parallel to the popular J-Y3082/FGC13873.

    From what I understood, one of these samples is YF65400 on YFull. Rough estimation suggests the TMRCA with the Englishmen should be around 5000 ybp. This result suggests that your lineage may have arrived to Europe since the Bronze Age. Though it remains to be seen if this new subclade will be found outside of Europe, particularly in the Eastern Mediterranean.

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Congrats! Very interesting result (basal J-ZS241).

    I guess our hesitation, as suggested by a couple of non modal values, to not classify you any deeper than J-ZS241 without further testing turned out correct

    I just checked your BigY results. You are indeed positive for ZS241, Y3081 plus other equivalents. And positive for 5 out of 30 SNPs shared by the Englishmen.
    So you will form a subclade defined by SNPs: BY32817, BY32820, BY32833, BY32835, BZ595, which will be parallel to the popular J-Y3082/FGC13873.

    From what I understood, one of these samples is YF65400 on YFull. Rough estimation suggests the TMRCA with the Englishmen should be around 5000 ybp. This result suggests that your lineage may have arrived to Europe since the Bronze Age. Though it remains to be seen if this new subclade will be found outside of Europe, particularly in the Eastern Mediterranean.
    Indeed, we can now say for sure that the relation to S20075 (ZS227) that was speculated by some based on Y-25 was incorrect.

    Yes, sample YF65400 is one of the J-BY32809 members and is the one from England (the other, who is on FTDNA, is from the United States but of English descent). The fact that I form my own basal branch does indeed seem to favour the theory of an earlier arrival into Europe or the Balkans. I really hope that in the future we will find some closer matches and pin-point the spread of this cluster, in order to get a better idea of when it arrived.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 07-29-2020 at 11:43 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  7. #4
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    Congratulations on the result. I must ask did You use YHRD (Powerplex) to check possible connection with some other haplotypes who are not on the FTDNA database or any with konown names?

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  9. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by levantino II View Post
    Congratulations on the result. I must ask did You use YHRD (Powerplex) to check possible connection with some other haplotypes who are not on the FTDNA database or any with konown names?
    I've uploaded my CSV file to the site, but unfortunately they could not find any matches.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  11. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I've uploaded my CSV file to the site, but unfortunately they could not find any matches.
    Thanks. I don't know how they check those files but even on seven markers they have the chance to miss some close connections. In Minimal complete, with seven markers they have one complex and some relatively fast markers like DYS391 and DYS389II. I prefer manual entering into Search option

    I play a little with Cooper haplotype and I found following result:

    393-390-19-391-385ab-439-389I-392-389II-458-437-448-GATAH4-456-438-635
    12- 23- 14- 10- 15/15- 11- 13- 11- 29- 16.2- 14- 20- 12- 15- 10-22

    This looks very close to Coopers haplotype, especially if we reduce value on GATAH4 for -1 (on eleven). This haplotype is from:"Analysis of 36 Y-STR marker units including a concordance study among 2085 Dutch males" as NL1996 Table 2

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...002282#upi0005

    I know this is Cooper and not your haplotype but I believe it could be useful for some analysis of your branch

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  13. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by levantino II View Post
    Thanks. I don't know how they check those files but even on seven markers they have the chance to miss some close connections. In Minimal complete, with seven markers they have one complex and some relatively fast markers like DYS391 and DYS389II. I prefer manual entering into Search option

    I play a little with Cooper haplotype and I found following result:

    393-390-19-391-385ab-439-389I-392-389II-458-437-448-GATAH4-456-438-635
    12- 23- 14- 10- 15/15- 11- 13- 11- 29- 16.2- 14- 20- 12- 15- 10-22

    This looks very close to Coopers haplotype, especially if we reduce value on GATAH4 for -1 (on eleven). This haplotype is from:"Analysis of 36 Y-STR marker units including a concordance study among 2085 Dutch males" as NL1996 Table 2

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...002282#upi0005

    I know this is Cooper and not your haplotype but I believe it could be useful for some analysis of your branch
    I could PM you my STR markers so that you could search for any potential matches, I'm not fully sure on how to use the YHRD site and find the markers of these samples in order to compare with mine.

    Though on Minimal it says that I have 13 matches in 307,169 haplotypes, I do not seem to have matches on the other higher levels however.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  15. #8
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    No problem. I'll be glad to do it.

    I need just 17 markers:

    393-390-19-391-385ab-439-389I-392-389II-458-437-448-GATAH4-456-438-635

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  17. #9
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    FTDNA has just updated my results and the Haplotree. I am now classified as J-BY32817 which is correct, and this is also shown on the Haplotree where I am just upstream of BY32809.

    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  19. #10
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    Was planning on writing this when the forum went down:

    BY32817 is a very interesting and basal branch, its distribution is somewhat puzzling. Considering how ZS241 itself is a major branch of YSC234 and the presence of ZS241 in the most ancient Middle Bronze Age sample from Megiddo (I10268) there is in my view no question that your branch originated in the Levant. The question that needs to be asked is where exactly in the Levant. It is tempting to draw conclusions from its presence in MBA Megiddo and assign a Canaanite origin to this branch, on the other hand an origin among the Amorites in Syria is just as feasible, it's also unclear to what extent the Canaanites can be distinguished from the Amorites as it is likely they too originally were southern Amorites. One could infer an arrival in Europe during the Late Bronze Age as Mycenaean trade made its way to Lezhë and its immediate surroundings, LBA trade networks were thoroughly interconnected and it is entirely plausible for some Canaanite trader to have made his way to what would later become Illyria. Alternatively, a later origin during Roman times is also plausible considering the pre-Y3081 case from Civitanova Marche (R85) during the Imperial Period, this could be Syrian/Aramean just as easily as it could be Judean. Much of this depends on your branch's TMRCA and on future finds.

    Again, this bears repeating, there is little doubt that your branch is ultimately NW Semitic in origin, and has its roots in the earliest Semitic-speaking groups in the region. ZS241 itself might also have been present east of the Jordan river, which adds another layer of complexity.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 08-14-2020 at 01:23 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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