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Thread: L70>Z435>Z2177>PH185; Years of Confusion

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    L70>Z435>Z2177>PH185; Years of Confusion

    Hello! I'm new to the forum, this will be my first post. Please forgive my writing style - I have been told it is often very difficult to follow my train of thought, but I will try my best!

    I have been following developments in studies of my haplogroup since getting tested about a decade ago. Now, I have only been tested at the Y-37 level, but my one and only match at that level (with 2 mismatched STRs, and ftdna estimating we have a common ancestor in the last 300-400 years, if I've understood it correctly) is an Italian(Neapolitan)-American with the terminal SNP FGC24630 (which is a subgroup of L-70>>>PH185, but beyond that it seems different websites use different labels). Now, please correct me if I am wrong, but this almost certainly means if I were able to afford a bigger Y testing, I'd be PH185+. (And my own ancestor was an Italian from somewhere in Campania)

    But, as I have followed over the years, unlike with certain other branches, it seems the mystery of L70 and its subclades (especially those below Z435) has only gotten more complex. There are at least three threads on this forum where the discussion has gone on regarding its presence in Italy, the Middle East, and the Jewish diaspora.

    As I have understood it, L70 itself certainly originated in the Levant, (especially with the new Palestinian and Jordanian discoveries, everyone seems to agree it at least didn't *originate* in Anatolia or elsewhere).... but after that, regarding Z435 and below, conflicting narratives seem to emerge? I would really like to get some more educated opinions on this.

    1.The Italic narrative, as shown on Eupedia and in the old Southern Italy thread, is essentially that L70 was present throughout the Levant, eastern Anatolia, and southern Caucasus, and *part* of it was absorbed into the southern proto-indo-european expansion along with R1b. That is why L70 appears at a low rate anywhere R1b does (western and central europe with the proto-italo-celts, from Ireland and Scotland to Germany down through the balkans with the group that ended up as r1b greeks), but a small lineage (a sub-lineage of z435+, PERHAPS all of it, or perhaps some of it was even left behind in the mid-east way back before the PIE branch even took off) had a "founder effect" and became a very large lineage among the central-southern italic tribes, and was spread around again specifically by roman expansion into specific parts of europe and the middle east (and perhaps INTO Judea due to conquest, rather than from it).

    2. The Levantine VS Greek narrative? So, for years it was said that Z435 was almost certainly NOT Greek, and seemed to skip directly into Italy from the Middle East, and YFull's MRCA calculations seem to me, unless I am misunderstanding, to indicate that this happened somewhere between 1400-1100 BC? And was certainly NOT connected to the Etruscan regions at all. This would SEEM to give credence to the Italic narrative, since there doesn't seem to be any historical record of a migration from the Levant, certainly not Jewish, during those years. And Z435 DOESN'T seem to appear in the phoenician diaspora, but only amongst Jews and Arabs back in the Mid-East... All of which seems to argue against either an Etruscan or Phoenician migration. And it *appears* to be present in Italians and so-on higher up on the "Tree" far before entering any down-clade Jewish groups.(Which seems to me to indicate it entered the Jewish world during Roman times, rather than the other way around.) I have seen some discussion here about CTS3601 and its subgroups perhaps being Levantine and not descended from Europeans? Although I suppose this wouldn't rule out Z2177 spreading in some other way. But I honestly can't keep track of all of this!

    One interesting thing that appears to conflict with all of the other data, YFull, etc. is some on this forum were discussing a study that found the "center" of some L70 groups, proved that Z2177 at least (I think some others as well?) was actually originated in Greece itself?(Euboea?) Although I couldn't actually find the study or really follow a lot of the specifics, is the suggestion that Z2177 originated in Greece (maybe the ancestor got there from Al-Minah?), after moving to Italy/Magna Graecia, the lineage itself more or less died out in Greece itself? Does it then explain further "south" groups in europeans and the arabs(and maybe jews) that spread from italy as roman descendants? Am I understanding this narrative correctly? But I'm not sure how this lines up with the MRCA timelines on YFull. I am no expert, clearly.

    Finally, most specifically, PH185 exists within Italians, Western Europeans+Americans, and Arabs in Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia. I am not sure if it is common in Jews as well, but ph185 TMRCA is 1000BC, even though its parent clades had already supposedly gotten around to Europe.. so... honestly I am at a loss. But I don't think it all lines up with a converted Judean origin or a Greek origin but the newer Arab stuff and that study are both really adding to the confusion.

    ........ Thoughts?
    Last edited by harrimir; 07-29-2020 at 11:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    Hello! I'm new to the forum, this will be my first post. Please forgive my writing style - I have been told it is often very difficult to follow my train of thought, but I will try my best!
    Welcome to Anthrogenica, I hope you can find what you are looking for here!

    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    I have been following developments in studies of my haplogroup since getting tested about a decade ago. Now, I have only been tested at the Y-37 level, but my one and only match at that level (with 2 mismatched STRs, and ftdna estimating we have a common ancestor in the last 300-400 years, if I've understood it correctly) is an Italian(Neapolitan)-American with the terminal SNP FGC24630 (which is a subgroup of L-70>>>PH185, but beyond that it seems different websites use different labels). Now, please correct me if I am wrong, but this almost certainly means if I were able to afford a bigger Y testing, I'd be PH185+. (And my own ancestor was an Italian from somewhere in Campania)
    I'm not too sure about this - if FTDNA has FGC24630 below PH185, you're probably PH185 - which isn't surprising if you're South Italian.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    As I have understood it, L70 itself certainly originated in the Levant, (especially with the new Palestinian and Jordanian discoveries, everyone seems to agree it at least didn't *originate* in Anatolia or elsewhere).... but after that, regarding Z435 and below, conflicting narratives seem to emerge? I would really like to get some more educated opinions on this.
    At this stage, it's most likely J-L70 originated in the Levant. There's strong evidence to suggest this, and I believe we will start seeing ancient L70 samples in the Levant in the near future. Before the Basal Palestinian arrived, there was still a possibility of an Anatolian origin - but the two Basal branches have narrowed it down. As for its migrations, I don't see any conflicting narratives - you can let me know what you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    1.The Italic narrative, as shown on Eupedia and in the old Southern Italy thread, is essentially that L70 was present throughout the Levant, eastern Anatolia, and southern Caucasus, and *part* of it was absorbed into the southern proto-indo-european expansion along with R1b. That is why L70 appears at a low rate anywhere R1b does (western and central europe with the proto-italo-celts, from Ireland and Scotland to Germany down through the balkans with the group that ended up as r1b greeks), but a small lineage (a sub-lineage of z435+, PERHAPS all of it, or perhaps some of it was even left behind in the mid-east way back before the PIE branch even took off) had a "founder effect" and became a very large lineage among the central-southern italic tribes, and was spread around again specifically by roman expansion into specific parts of europe and the middle east (and perhaps INTO Judea due to conquest, rather than from it).
    I don't think there's any strong evidence to suggest that L70 spread with Italic tribes or proto-Indo-Europeans. The Italic origin promoted by Eupedia (Maciamo has since abandoned this belief in favor of a Greek origin) is flawed mainly due to the lack of J-L70 in the regions where these groups passed through (this was before a Levantine or even Anatolian origin was considered). As for how J-L70 spread throughout continental Europe, Roman expansion is the most logical answer - but how the Romans got their J-L70, I'll address later on.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    2. The Levantine VS Greek narrative? So, for years it was said that Z435 was almost certainly NOT Greek, and seemed to skip directly into Italy from the Middle East, and YFull's MRCA calculations seem to me, unless I am misunderstanding, to indicate that this happened somewhere between 1400-1100 BC? And was certainly NOT connected to the Etruscan regions at all. This would SEEM to give credence to the Italic narrative, since there doesn't seem to be any historical record of a migration from the Levant, certainly not Jewish, during those years. And Z435 DOESN'T seem to appear in the phoenician diaspora, but only amongst Jews and Arabs back in the Mid-East... All of which seems to argue against either an Etruscan or Phoenician migration. And it *appears* to be present in Italians and so-on higher up on the "Tree" far before entering any down-clade Jewish groups.(Which seems to me to indicate it entered the Jewish world during Roman times, rather than the other way around.) I have seen some discussion here about CTS3601 and its subgroups perhaps being Levantine and not descended from Europeans? Although I suppose this wouldn't rule out Z2177 spreading in some other way. But I honestly can't keep track of all of this!
    One thing we can be sure of is that J-L70 isn't of Greek origin. However, there is one branch that likely reflects Greek expansion - J-Z2177>J-PH185. From one or two papers, all the L70 samples from Greece and parts of Southern Italy where the Greeks colonized were entirely Z2177 (based off the BAMs). Since J-FT51679 is Levantine, that leaves J-PH185 as the likely subclade that these individuals fall under. I imagine the migration path is something like this: Levant>Anatolia>Greece>Italy. As for how Central Italy got its L70, we can look at the Antonio paper, which demonstrated that during the time period of Imperial Rome, there was an influx of Middle Eastern ancestry, the likely source of the J-L70. I also do believe that the Phoenicians are responsible for some of Sicily's J-L70. In Sicily, Phoenician settlements (like Trapani and Mazara del Vallo) display the highest frequencies of J-L70 in Europe. J-Z435 is found in Lebanon amongst many families. I do think the J-L70 in Italy did experience a founder effect that resulted in higher frequencies (than Greece, for example - Greece actually doesn't have that high a frequency) as most individuals appear to be from the same set of villages. As for Italians higher up the tree - they're likely descended from immigrant lineages that survived to this day - the J-Z435 Italian sample above J-Z435* is likely a good example of that. Under J-PH185, there is an Italian Converso family - but that will need to be investigated further. As for how J-L70 entered the Jewish world, it was likely through the Canaanites. We know it couldn't be from Greeks or Romans as J-L70 is found virtually throughout the Jewish world in almost all sub-divisions. Several of these groups have traditions of leaving the Levant before interacting with Greeks and Romans (i.e. Djerban Cohanim and Bukharan Jews). Rome very clearly did spread J-L70 throughout continental Europe - but the Jewish Diaspora also possibly had a role in this.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    One interesting thing that appears to conflict with all of the other data, YFull, etc. is some on this forum were discussing a study that found the "center" of some L70 groups, proved that Z2177 at least (I think some others as well?) was actually originated in Greece itself?(Euboea?) Although I couldn't actually find the study or really follow a lot of the specifics, is the suggestion that Z2177 originated in Greece (maybe the ancestor got there from Al-Minah?), after moving to Italy/Magna Graecia, the lineage itself more or less died out in Greece itself? Does it then explain further "south" groups in europeans and the arabs(and maybe jews) that spread from italy as roman descendants? Am I understanding this narrative correctly? But I'm not sure how this lines up with the MRCA timelines on YFull. I am no expert, clearly.

    Finally, most specifically, PH185 exists within Italians, Western Europeans+Americans, and Arabs in Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia. I am not sure if it is common in Jews as well, but ph185 TMRCA is 1000BC, even though its parent clades had already supposedly gotten around to Europe.. so... honestly I am at a loss. But I don't think it all lines up with a converted Judean origin or a Greek origin but the newer Arab stuff and that study are both really adding to the confusion.

    I think I've addressed most of this. It's worth stating that J-L70 started spreading before Jews or Judeans.

    If you have any other questions, you can let me know.

    Perhaps some of my threads have some of the answers you seek:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....t-North-Africa

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Jews-and-J-L70
    Last edited by SUPREEEEEME; 07-30-2020 at 09:37 AM.
    Other Y-DNA:

    Maternal 6X Great Grandfather J1-ZS10441

    Target: SUPREEEEEME_scaled
    Distance: 1.9563% / 0.01956275
    33.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
    18.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    11.8 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
    10.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
    9.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    8.4 FRA_IA
    7.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    1.2 CHN_Chuanyun_Historic

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    However, there is one branch that likely reflects Greek expansion - J-Z2177>J-PH185. From one or two papers, all the L70 samples from Greece and parts of Southern Italy where the Greeks colonized were entirely Z2177 (based off the BAMs). Since J-FT51679 is Levantine, that leaves J-PH185 as the likely subclade that these individuals fall under. I imagine the migration path is something like this: Levant>Anatolia>Greece>Italy. As for how Central Italy got its L70, we can look at the Antonio paper, which demonstrated that during the time period of Imperial Rome, there was an influx of Middle Eastern ancestry, the likely source of the J-L70. I also do believe that the Phoenicians are responsible for some of Sicily's J-L70. In Sicily, Phoenician settlements (like Trapani and Mazara del Vallo) display the highest frequencies of J-L70 in Europe. J-Z435 is found in Lebanon amongst many families. I do think the J-L70 in Italy did experience a founder effect that resulted in higher frequencies (than Greece, for example - Greece actually doesn't have that high a frequency) as most individuals appear to be from the same set of villages. As for Italians higher up the tree - they're likely descended from immigrant lineages that survived to this day - the J-Z435 Italian sample above J-Z435* is likely a good example of that.
    Ah so if I am understanding correctly, even though perhaps other branches of L70 spread around in various ways, the timeline on z2177>ph185 is that it was still in the mid-east in 1000 bc, and only spread west after that?

    What are BAM? And the z2177 was found IN Greece as well? I hadn't realized. Was it also found in Anatolia? Because if you are familiar with the Al-Mina outpost, it may have come directly from tthere to the Greek world (whether through Greece or directly to Italy)... Or is there a reason it might be specifically thought to have entered Europe during roman imperial times rather than Greek colonial times? ( And if so, as you mentioned the conversos, and if it was present among both levantines and Greeks/Romans, is there even a way to distinguish between Greek Italian ph185 and Jewish Italian ph185? Does it even appear amongst Non-Italian Jews? That may be a clue since Ashkenazim spread north largely through Italy)

    And yes, I have been following your threads for a long while! Thank you for the help. As always though I'd love to hear from as many educated folks as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    Ah so if I am understanding correctly, even though perhaps other branches of L70 spread around in various ways, the timeline on z2177>ph185 is that it was still in the mid-east in 1000 bc, and only spread west after that?

    What are BAM? And the z2177 was found IN Greece as well? I hadn't realized. Was it also found in Anatolia? Because if you are familiar with the Al-Mina outpost, it may have come directly from tthere to the Greek world (whether through Greece or directly to Italy)... Or is there a reason it might be specifically thought to have entered Europe during roman imperial times rather than Greek colonial times? ( And if so, as you mentioned the conversos, and if it was present among both levantines and Greeks/Romans, is there even a way to distinguish between Greek Italian ph185 and Jewish Italian ph185? Does it even appear amongst Non-Italian Jews? That may be a clue since Ashkenazim spread north largely through Italy)

    And yes, I have been following your threads for a long while! Thank you for the help. As always though I'd love to hear from as many educated folks as possible.
    The oldest sample we have of J-L70 is from a Late Antiquity Roman - I believe that J-L70, therefore, arrived during the prior time period, Imperial Rome, as during this period there was an influx of Middle Eastern migrants - and J-L70 originated in the Middle East. Before Imperial Rome, there wasn't much J2 in Rome. So this is the oldest presence of J-L70 in Europe. Who knows if it was present there before that - we'd have to wait for ancient samples. I imagine it (PH185) formed in the Middle East, with it then spreading later on to Greece and Italy. As for where it formed - we don't know. These are several Syrians and a Saudi under this branch - but the rest of its distribution could line up with Greek expansion. Each sample from a DNA paper will have a BAM file that can be further analyzed for deeper subclades. Pretty much all the J-L70 in East Sicily, Ionian Italy, and Greece from papers are J-Z2177 based on analyzing these files. And since J-Z2177>J-FT51679 is Levantine with no known Greek presence, these samples were all likely J-Z2177>J-PH185. I know at least one Turkish person is PH185 based on FTDNA's database. I haven't heard of Al-Mina before - I do know of an L70 person from Latakia, Syria which is pretty close? - but I don't know what his downstream clade is. The Converso family could very well have a converted paternal line - we just don't know. I don't know of any other Jewish presence under J-PH185 aside from that. Out of interest, I have actually managed to find J-FGC24630 in Iraq - with the rest being J-CTS3601.
    Last edited by SUPREEEEEME; 07-30-2020 at 03:19 PM.
    Other Y-DNA:

    Maternal 6X Great Grandfather J1-ZS10441

    Target: SUPREEEEEME_scaled
    Distance: 1.9563% / 0.01956275
    33.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
    18.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    11.8 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
    10.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
    9.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    8.4 FRA_IA
    7.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    1.2 CHN_Chuanyun_Historic

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    FGC24360 in Iraq? That's interesting. I thought it was only present in Italy and Britain.
    I may be wrong but of all the PH185 groups that have middle eastern branches, none of them seem to have expanded with the Phoenicians? (All the 318 and others in Tunisia seem to be Jewish) Which would probably rule out a canaanite origin ? So either Syrian or Jewish to Imperial era Italy (and from there to Britain)??? Unless ph185 really did get to Magna Graecia first and then perhaps some of its branches ended up back in Levantine etc populations (including a few Jews) from Roman conquest.
    Unless I am misunderstanding something.

    I guess the distinguishing point would be if ph185 entered in 700s bc to Greek Italy and spread from that point... Or if it came to imperial Italy and spread during that point.
    .... Or I guess it could all be Jewish /Early Christians since Saudi Arabia, Deir ez-Zor, Iraq, and southern Italy were all exactly where the Jewish diaspora went immediately after expulsion..

    Sorry if I'm going around in circles, I just would like to make sure I'm not missing anything.
    What do you think is the likeliest scenario based on the dna? (Supreme? Principe? Any others?)

    Edit: Actually wait, since it is quite common in the inland middle East and not just the Levant, I would guess an imperial era Roman migration is far more likely for fgc24630 .. since there was a ton of immigration from the mid east to Rome but not much (Greco)Italian settlement in the mid east.
    But Jewish diaspora or Arab/Syro-Roman?

    Although that old L70 distribution map really looks like the italic narrative... Is it really all just modern testing bias?
    Last edited by harrimir; 07-31-2020 at 01:27 PM.

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    I know it's bad form to double post but since I've already edited it about three times..

    So, correct me if I'm wrong, the two main theories for z2177 & ph185 distribution from the Aramaic world to Europe are:
    1. Levant>Greece(likely Euboea)&Magna Graecia during Greek colonial era. (900-700 bc)
    https://www.persee.fr/doc/efr_0223-5...act_251_1_5386
    Screenshot_20200731-224207.png

    Or 2. With the Syrian(or Nabataean Arab) migration and military settlement in the Imperial Roman era.

    https://scriptaclassica.org/index.ph...icle/view/2065

    Since genetically speaking 900 years is quite close and all Z2177/PH185+ is older than that, as well as the fact that both of these populations would have ended up participating in the Roman expansion.. is there a way to tell these apart? Am I missing something important? Am I totally off?

    It might be notable that Syrian soldiers were a disproportionate part of the Roman military contingent in North Britain, from which a lot of PH185+ /FGC24630 may have spread into Ulster, the US, etc. But I suppose this could also have happened with the settlement of people who had been greco-italian for hundreds of years as well. If there is a way to tell... Please let me know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    FGC24360 in Iraq? That's interesting. I thought it was only present in Italy and Britain.
    I may be wrong but of all the PH185 groups that have middle eastern branches, none of them seem to have expanded with the Phoenicians? (All the 318 and others in Tunisia seem to be Jewish) Which would probably rule out a canaanite origin ? So either Syrian or Jewish to Imperial era Italy (and from there to Britain)??? Unless ph185 really did get to Magna Graecia first and then perhaps some of its branches ended up back in Levantine etc populations (including a few Jews) from Roman conquest.
    Unless I am misunderstanding something.

    I guess the distinguishing point would be if ph185 entered in 700s bc to Greek Italy and spread from that point... Or if it came to imperial Italy and spread during that point.
    .... Or I guess it could all be Jewish /Early Christians since Saudi Arabia, Deir ez-Zor, Iraq, and southern Italy were all exactly where the Jewish diaspora went immediately after expulsion..

    Sorry if I'm going around in circles, I just would like to make sure I'm not missing anything.
    What do you think is the likeliest scenario based on the dna? (Supreme? Principe? Any others?)

    Edit: Actually wait, since it is quite common in the inland middle East and not just the Levant, I would guess an imperial era Roman migration is far more likely for fgc24630 .. since there was a ton of immigration from the mid east to Rome but not much (Greco)Italian settlement in the mid east.
    But Jewish diaspora or Arab/Syro-Roman?
    Sorry it's taken me long to respond.

    I've not only found FGC24360 in Iraq, but also Syria and Turkey. Yes, PH185 doesn't appear to have spread with Phoenicians. I imagine branches like M318 and CTS3601 did. M318 is likely of Canaanite origin. It's found in >60% of Djerban Cohanim and 5% of Libyan Jews. I have also found several Lebanese individuals with it. This is what I think happened with PH185:

    It probably spread early from the Levant to Anatolia. This gives the opportunity of smaller branches ending up in Syria and Turkey (and Iraq). From Anatolia, it would have then spread to the Aegean, and from the Aegean to Italy. Rome would then be responsible for it's spread into the UK etc... There is a possibility of it spreading back into the Middle East. Of course, this could all be theoretically wrong but we would need more testing and ancient samples.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    Although that old L70 distribution map really looks like the italic narrative... Is it really all just modern testing bias?
    Which map are you referring to? I did make an L70 map on my main thread not too long ago. If you're referring to the one on Google Maps, that one suffers heavily from modern testing bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    "I know it's bad form to double post but since I've already edited it about three times..

    So, correct me if I'm wrong, the two main theories for z2177 & ph185 distribution from the Aramaic world to Europe are:
    1. Levant>Greece(likely Euboea)&Magna Graecia during Greek colonial era. (900-700 bc)
    https://www.persee.fr/doc/efr_0223-5...act_251_1_5386
    Click image for larger version.

    Name: Screenshot_20200731-224207.png
    Views: 4
    Size: 909.8 KB
    ID: 38827

    Or 2. With the Syrian(or Nabataean Arab) migration and military settlement in the Imperial Roman era.

    https://scriptaclassica.org/index.ph...icle/view/2065

    Since genetically speaking 900 years is quite close and all Z2177/PH185+ is older than that, as well as the fact that both of these populations would have ended up participating in the Roman expansion.. is there a way to tell these apart? Am I missing something important? Am I totally off?

    It might be notable that Syrian soldiers were a disproportionate part of the Roman military contingent in North Britain, from which a lot of PH185+ /FGC24630 may have spread into Ulster, the US, etc. But I suppose this could also have happened with the settlement of people who had been greco-italian for hundreds of years as well. If there is a way to tell... Please let me know?"
    I think your first scenario is most likely (including Anatolia). A direct route from Levant to Greece could very well have happened, but I'm not too familiar with the history.

    As for Syrian/Nabatean migration to Rome, I would imagine that's more CTS3601 and Z435*. But again, not impossible for PH185. I don't think we have enough data - but we know there's a very large Greek and Southern Italian presence in these branches, which I think makes a Syrian/Nabatean origin unlikely.
    Last edited by SUPREEEEEME; 08-01-2020 at 04:28 PM.
    Other Y-DNA:

    Maternal 6X Great Grandfather J1-ZS10441

    Target: SUPREEEEEME_scaled
    Distance: 1.9563% / 0.01956275
    33.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
    18.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    11.8 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
    10.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
    9.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    8.4 FRA_IA
    7.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    1.2 CHN_Chuanyun_Historic

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    I don't think we have enough data - but we know there's a very large Greek and Southern Italian presence in these branches, which I think makes a Syrian/Nabatean origin unlikely.
    Regarding PH185 and FGC24630 (which is apparently just all ph185+ that isn't ph185*), exactly how large is the presence in Greece and Western Anatolia? And is centered in Euboea or evenly spread around.

    Obviously both theories of this would have some branches being left behind in the Near East, and that could spread around in various population movements since 1000 bc (Especially the contiguous cultural region from northern Mesopotamia -and southeastern Anatolia- to Syria to Jordan to the Hejaz).

    But, where they may differ in distribution:
    1. If Greek distribution is the case, we would expect to see ph185+ spike in a specific part of Greece, probably Euboea, as well as appearing at a lower level in the rest of Greece in western Anatolia. As well, of course we would see distribution into southern Italy, and from there throughout Roman military posts and colonies, in Britain, along the Rhine, perhaps in France and Spain and North Africa and back a bit into Greece and the Near East.

    If there was a later Syro-Roman distribution, we might expect to see it primarily in places where disproportionate Syrian-Roman military settlement and civilian immigration happened. North Britain, south eastern Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Pannonia, and then citizens migrating into Southern Italy (as we know from recent geneflow studies.. unfortunately the study itself https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708 is behind a pay-wall but here are some images I snatched from a fash blogger.https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tn-zVXvK0...2Bhistory.jpeg https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EdYNa-dH5...-Religions.jpg ). And we might see them throughout the roman empire including Greece but we would probably NOT expect to see a disproportionate spike in a specific island of Greece, nor along the Rhine where IIRC Syrian soldiers weren't used disproportionately.

    You know the PH185+/FGC24630 distribution better than I do. Which model does the western distribution fit?
    Last edited by harrimir; 08-01-2020 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Added Pannonia to Syrian legion area

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    Regarding PH185 and FGC24630 (which is apparently just all ph185+ that isn't ph185*), exactly how large is the presence in Greece and Western Anatolia? And is centered in Euboea or evenly spread around.

    Obviously both theories of this would have some branches being left behind in the Near East, and that could spread around in various population movements since 1000 bc (Especially the contiguous cultural region from northern Mesopotamia -and southeastern Anatolia- to Syria to Jordan to the Hejaz).

    But, where they may differ in distribution:
    1. If Greek distribution is the case, we would expect to see ph185+ spike in a specific part of Greece, probably Euboea, as well as appearing at a lower level in the rest of Greece in western Anatolia. As well, of course we would see distribution into southern Italy, and from there throughout Roman military posts and colonies, in Britain, along the Rhine, perhaps in France and Spain and North Africa and back a bit into Greece and the Near East.

    If there was a later Syro-Roman distribution, we might expect to see it primarily in places where disproportionate Syrian-Roman military settlement and civilian immigration happened. North Britain, south eastern Anatolia, Mesopotamia, and then citizens migrating into Southern Italy (as we know from recent geneflow studies.. unfortunately the study itself https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708 is behind a pay-wall but here are some images I snatched from a fash blogger.https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tn-zVXvK0...2Bhistory.jpeg https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EdYNa-dH5...-Religions.jpg ). And we might see them throughout the roman empire including Greece but we would probably NOT expect to see a disproportionate spike in a specific island of Greece, nor along the Rhine where IIRC Syrian soldiers weren't used disproportionately.

    You know the PH185+/FGC24630 distribution better than I do. Which model does the western distribution fit?
    Harrimir, you raise good points, and in all honesty with the latest update from Yfull it almost seems certain that L70 was/is Levantine in origin, and Phoenician/Syrian can fit the bill for PH185, I initially thought it was Greek based on its distribution, but I should have considered the fact that there was a huge wave of Levantine admixture in Italy and Greece during the Iron Age, (never fully considered L70 until Supreme really) it was just extremely successful.
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    Sorry, when you say Iron Age, do you mean Imperial Age? Or are you saying the distribution lines up with the North Syria to Euboea to Magna Graecia?
    Those gene studies from that post are about imperial Italy..
    The north Syrian archaelogy study I posted higher up was a small contingent, if I am reading the studies correctly.

    I don't mean to nitpick, but IS ph185+ present along the Rhine and spiking in Euboea and such or... Is there another reason to favor one idea?
    Last edited by harrimir; 08-01-2020 at 05:54 PM.

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