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Thread: Who were the Awan tribe? Need help with report

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    Here are some of the OP's results from vahaduo:

    World K134 G25

    Distance to: jdufh _scaled
    0.03096847 Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj
    0.05095469 Yusufzai-Uthmankhel-Tarkalani
    0.05221227 Burusho
    0.08156479 Kshatriya-Iyer-Brahmin
    0.11104052 Tajik
    0.15030922 Turkmen
    0.15070841 Gupta
    0.15311469 Dusadh-Maratha-Chamar-Yadava
    0.16553554 Kurdish-Persian
    0.16569026 Chenchu-Relli
    0.17236668 Uzbek
    0.17616646 Balikesir-Aydin
    0.17683372 Kabardin-Circassian-Karachay-Abazin
    0.17763935 Pallan-Sakilli-Madiga
    0.17765783 Avar-Lak-Kubachinian-Tabasaran
    0.18517518 Ingushian-Chechen-Adygei
    0.19096950 Adana-Kayseri
    0.20319179 Abkhasian-Imer-Ossetian
    0.20878408 Hazara-Uygur
    0.21134740 Chuvash-Udmurt-Besermyan
    0.21834672 Armenian-Assyrian
    0.22596838 Trabzon-Laz
    0.24057641 Jordanian-Palestinian-Bedouin-Syrian
    0.24137005 Crete-Kos
    0.24224156 Samaritan-Lebanese-Druze


    Target: jdufh _scaled
    Distance: 2.5396% / 0.02539577
    76.4 Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj
    12.2 Gupta
    5.2 Abkhasian-Imer-Ossetian
    3.6 Avar-Lak-Kubachinian-Tabasaran
    1.8 Surui-Karitiana
    0.8 Papuan-Kosipe-Koinanbe

    0 - 1000 BCE (Iron Age) G25 Calculator

    Target: jdufh_scaled
    Distance: 2.7933% / 0.02793262
    79.6 SWAT-VALLEY
    11.6 DRAVIDIAN
    6.0 MACEDONIAN
    2.0 URAL-CIMMERIAN
    0.8 SARMATIAN-POKROVKA

    G25 ancient 2500 BCE - 2000 BCE calculator

    Target: jdufh_scaled
    Distance: 2.2603% / 0.02260254
    45.0 INDUS-VALLEY-CIVILIZATION
    31.4 BACTRIA-MARGIANA
    10.6 BRITAIN-CA-EBA
    7.4 URAL-SIBERIA
    4.8 CZECH-EBA
    0.8 ARMENIA-EBA
    Khatri/Kamboh makes sense. I'm sure if we had our Arain samples on G25, they'd show up as first closest population.
    Panjab, پنجابی, ਫਤਿਹll

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdufh View Post
    So my tribe's not actually Awan?


    Also got this if it helps:

    scaled
    Distance: 2.5371% / 0.02537054
    46.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
    21.6 TJK_Sarazm_En
    10.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    7.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    6.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    5.6 KAZ_Botai
    1.8 Han
    0.2 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
    Your tribe is Awan. There is just no Awan sample population in the modern G25 calculators but groups like Khatri/Kamboj/Sindhi/Kohistani are close enough to your genome that they model your modern ancestry very well. The run that you pasted above is just a generic ancients (Indus Valley Civilization proxy + Eneolithic Central Asian + Steppe + BMAC + ANF, etc.) run Eurogenes/Davidski sends most South Asians. You can get bitter fits than that with other relevant ancients. I'd way for agent_lime to run you on his custom nMonte.

    Just a quick breakdown of some of the ancients:

    1. IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 is a proxy for the Indus Valley Civilization. It's a combination of Iran N (Iranian Neolithic farmer; though one of the newer papers argues there is also Iran M or Iranian Mesolithic Hunter Gatherers who are an Iran N related population who developed farming on their own in South Asia) + South Asian Hunter Gatherer ancestry (SAHG and we refer to it more commonly as AASI or Ancient Ancestral South Indian). It is theorized as the first out of Africa population to have migrated to South Asia and represents the most indigenous South Asian ancestry.
    2. TJK_Sarazm is an ancient Eneolithic Central Asian from Sarazm NW Tajikistan. It's a combination of Iran N (Iranian Neolithic farmer) + WSHG (West Siberian like Hunter Gatherer)
    3. RUS_Sintashta_MLBA represents Eurasian Steppe ancestry that likely came via the Indo-Aryan migrations.
    4. Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps is BMAC ancestry I believe and it's an acronym for the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex from Central Asia. It is a combination of Iran N ancestry + minor Anatolian Neolithic Farmer ancestry + some WSHG.
    5. Anatolia_Barcin_N is ANF (Anatolia Neolithic Farmer) and farmer ancestry from Anatolia (modern Turkey). It is distinct from Iran N (Iranian Neolithic farmer ancestry).
    6. KAZ_Botai is WSHG like Steppe ancestry I believe.
    7. Han are modern Han Chinese (not sure whether from North, Central or Southern China). They're a proxy for East Eurasian ancestry.

    This is just a quick summary. You're better off googling and doing your own research for a more detailed understanding of these ancients. There are a multitude of genetics paper on South Asia that explain them.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 08-02-2020 at 10:48 AM.
    pegasus modeling:
    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

    avatar credit goes out to aaronbee2010

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  4. #43
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    Target: jdufh_scaled
    Distance: 3.0929% / 0.03092853
    56.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
    15.2 TJK_Sarazm_En
    10.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    7.6 Corded_Ware_Baltic
    6.8 CHN_Tianyuan
    3.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N

    Something is really weird here.

    Target: jdufh_scaled
    Distance: 2.5397% / 0.02539744
    41.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    17.8 AASI_NW
    13.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    11.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    8.2 RUS_West_Siberia_N
    3.0 RUS_MA1
    2.2 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
    1.8 Aymara
    1.2 Papuan

    One thing I noticed running moderns that she has some Kanjar signal. Her ancestry could be a mix of base PJL + SPGT + foreigner. This is fairly odd. The high Anatolia_Barcin_N and fairly low Steppe also points in the direction. In some runs the Steppe is very MA1 (or WSHG heavy). Maybe they have been an endogamous community long enough that there is no memory. She artificially matches Kohistanis/ Khatris but how she got there might be different.

    Target: jdufh_scaled
    Distance: 2.6829% / 0.02682879
    40.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    17.2 AASI_NW
    14.2 RUS_MA1
    12.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    8.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    3.8 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
    3.4 RUS_West_Siberia_N
    Distance: 2.317278350858025%

    PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H: 66.7%
    PAK_Katelai_IA: 33.3%
    Other: 0.0%

    Distance: 2.318156218404995%

    Brahmin_Gujarat: 41.3%
    Kohistani: 21.1%
    Kalash: 20.6%
    Khatri: 10.5%
    Burusho: 4.6%
    Pashtun: 1.8%
    Other: 0.1%

    Distance: 2.345917613302293%

    Gujar_Pakistan: 28.5%
    Kalash: 23.0%
    Kanjar: 21.7%
    Kashmiri_Pandit: 10.1%
    Georgian_Imer: 7.4%
    Kubachinian: 3.7%
    Gupta: 2.8%
    Surui: 1.7%
    Koinanbe: 0.8%
    Other: 0.2%

    Nonsensical run against the full sheet-

    Target: jdufh_scaled
    Distance: 1.8219% / 0.01821936
    22.6 Kanjar
    21.6 TKM_Geoksyur_En
    15.0 Gupta
    6.6 Dusadh
    5.8 UZB_Bustan_BA_o2
    5.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
    4.6 Nordic_LN_low_res
    4.2 TJK_Sarazm_En
    3.0 UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
    2.2 Anatolia_IA_low_res
    2.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1
    2.0 USA_NM_Chaco
    1.8 AFG_Darra_i_kur_MBA_low_res
    1.0 GEO_CHG
    0.8 RUS_Kurma_EBA_o
    0.6 Koinanbe
    0.4 She
    Last edited by agent_lime; 08-01-2020 at 03:18 PM.

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    Target: jdufh_scaled
    Distance: 2.5397% / 0.02539744
    41.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    17.8 AASI_NW
    13.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    11.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    8.2 RUS_West_Siberia_N
    3.0 RUS_MA1
    2.2 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
    1.8 Aymara
    1.2 Papuan
    What's RUS_MA1?

  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdufh View Post
    What's RUS_MA1?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian

    MA-1 is Malta boy. It's old Eurasian. Came before the Steppe invasion (Aryan invasion). Was probably mixed with AASI before the last ice age ended.

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  9. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Ali View Post
    Just chiming in with my assessment of the Awans. My grandmother is a 'Qutb Shahi Awan' and boyyy is she proud of it. So, because of this, I grew up hearing the legends of their origins and their accomplishments etc. @ jdufh do you happen to know which branch of the Awans you belong to? From what I'm told there are up to twelve, and then there are separate Jatt/Rajput tribes which also claim an Awan origin e.g. some Khokars of the Salt Range.

    I can't give you an expert assessment of the genetic picture, unfortunately; but I share the opinion of other more learned users here that your caucasian is on the higher side as compared with the Awan results we have seen so far. By comparison, I have tested some of my maternal family members and (although they are mixed) their caucasian doesn't exceed 14/15. Regionally, where do your parents originate? I know some Peshawari and Nowshera Awans who, despite having a Punjabi origin, have lived in the frontier since colonial times. They now speak Pashto and identify as Pathans (some even go by the name 'Awanzai') so I do wonder whether the source of your higher caucasian could be a non-Awan ancestor from the frontier/KPK, whether Pashtun or otherwise.

    In terms of the genealogical tree of the Awans, there are multiple legends, but the nub of it is this. The Awans say they had an Iraqi ancestor - 'Qutb Shah' - who hailed from Baghdad and was a lineal descendant of either Muhammad Al Hanafiyya or Abbas ibn Ali: both sons of Hazrat Ali through a wife other than Bibi Fatima. Some accounts make Qutb Shah the viceregent of Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani, accounting for the Awans' predominant association with Qadri Sufism in Pakistan. According to Awan traditions, Qutb Shah was made the governor of Herat or Ghazni in Afghanistan and later entered the subcontinent as part of an Afghan/Turkic expedition. Eventually he and his seven sons settled in the Salt Range, taking local Rajput women as wives, and over the generations gaining repute as an influential zamindar clan.

    In my opinion, this is almost certainly just a legend. The Awan samples we have seen exemplify a haplogroup diversity (I've seen predominantly J2 and R1a) and, autosomally, they resemble their regional neighbours. So, for example, my grandmother and her brother are indistinguishable from their Potohari cousin communities, like Ghakkars, Janjuas or Khokars. Although that technically does not rule out the possibility of a foreign ancestor (if, as is claimed, it is true that they had a single foreign ancestor and have been intermarrying with locals for centuries), but I don't personally think there's much truth to the Awan claim to Iraqi Arab and much less 'Alid or Alvi descent.

    So that leaves the question: who exactly are the Awan? There are numerous theories, including that they are converted Rajputs or Jatts. Their kinship with other clans, like the Ghebas of PindiGheb, may lend credence to this theory. I personally think that they are a local Salt Range tribe who perhaps converted at the hands of an early Sufi Saint (perhaps the eponymous Qutb Shah, although there is no evidence of any such person having lived or, much less, having settled in Punjab). The Awans have been historically important, and were at times embroiled in lengthy conflicts with the Tiwanas to the south and the Janjuas in their own areas. British accounts describe the Awans as yeomanry, whereas the Ghakkars and Janjuas were the gentry. From what I understand, the Awans' social fortunes changed when the British struck a deal with them: many Awans were agitating against British rule and causing trouble in the NW Punjab. And so the British attended an Awan jirga/panchayat and agreed that, in order to deal with the rowdiness, they would recruit Awans into the British army. Thus began the Awan tradition - which persists to this day - of military service. Even in contemporary Pakistan, many rural Awan families see military service as the ideal career.

    I hope that helps, but you can DM me if you would like to discuss further.

    And, as I said, others will be able to give you a more accurate assessment of your own, particular Harappa and G25 results.
    In terms of "branch" I've just been told we're Awan Maliks but I think that's very general? They've always been around the Chakwal region and the only other info I've gotten from them is "we're from Persians" so that doesn't help much. We also have some grey/blue eyes in the family (aunts/uncles). My mtDNA also doesn't make sense
    Last edited by jdufh; 08-01-2020 at 04:38 PM.

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  11. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    Target: jdufh_scaled
    Distance: 3.0929% / 0.03092853
    56.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
    15.2 TJK_Sarazm_En
    10.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    7.6 Corded_Ware_Baltic
    6.8 CHN_Tianyuan
    3.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N

    Something is really weird here.

    Target: jdufh_scaled
    Distance: 2.5397% / 0.02539744
    41.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    17.8 AASI_NW
    13.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    11.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    8.2 RUS_West_Siberia_N
    3.0 RUS_MA1
    2.2 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
    1.8 Aymara
    1.2 Papuan

    One thing I noticed running moderns that she has some Kanjar signal. Her ancestry could be a mix of base PJL + SPGT + foreigner. This is fairly odd. The high Anatolia_Barcin_N and fairly low Steppe also points in the direction. In some runs the Steppe is very MA1 (or WSHG heavy). Maybe they have been an endogamous community long enough that there is no memory. She artificially matches Kohistanis/ Khatris but how she got there might be different.



    Distance: 2.317278350858025%

    PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H: 66.7%
    PAK_Katelai_IA: 33.3%
    Other: 0.0%

    Distance: 2.318156218404995%

    Brahmin_Gujarat: 41.3%
    Kohistani: 21.1%
    Kalash: 20.6%
    Khatri: 10.5%
    Burusho: 4.6%
    Pashtun: 1.8%
    Other: 0.1%

    Distance: 2.345917613302293%

    Gujar_Pakistan: 28.5%
    Kalash: 23.0%
    Kanjar: 21.7%
    Kashmiri_Pandit: 10.1%
    Georgian_Imer: 7.4%
    Kubachinian: 3.7%
    Gupta: 2.8%
    Surui: 1.7%
    Koinanbe: 0.8%
    Other: 0.2%

    Nonsensical run against the full sheet-
    How sensible is it to add ancient pops from periods that span several thousands of years of difference between them?
    And second, how sensible is it to add a wide range of, that is, several, population groups, other than for speculative results?
    In the case of South Asia, when you add many local populations, with a significant share of the so-called AASI, you will often need certain foreign populations to add them to the model, as has happened here.

    I think Awans are an interesting identity, which belongs to several NW South Asian groups, especially from Northern Punjab and a bit admixture from the waves of West, Central & SW Asian populations, which have been coming into South Asia and mixing with the existing populations, all across the subcontinent. And as such they may exhibit a high percentage of one or the other components from outside. However none has been able to totally transform the general admixture of the population, for the population size had already grown too big to allow that to happen, several centuries ago, likely even before Alexander's invasion. However recent admixture, as is the case with the Kashmiri Pandit, which we are discussing on the other thread, is too hard to miss..

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  13. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdufh View Post
    In terms of "branch" I've just been told we're Awan Maliks but I think that's very general? They've always been around the Chakwal region and the only other info I've gotten from them is "we're from Persians" so that doesn't help much. We also have some grey/blue eyes in the family (aunts/uncles). My mtDNA also doesn't make sense
    Awans are mostly settled, as I said before, in the Hindko-speaking areas of Pak-Administered Kashmir and KPK, actually I have two friends, met one of them in Islamabad, and the other one is from Attock, not far from Talagang. Both are lawyers, just like Babar Awan.

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  15. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    Here are some of the OP's results from vahaduo:

    World K134 G25

    Distance to: jdufh _scaled
    0.03096847 Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj
    0.05095469 Yusufzai-Uthmankhel-Tarkalani
    0.05221227 Burusho
    0.08156479 Kshatriya-Iyer-Brahmin
    0.11104052 Tajik
    0.15030922 Turkmen
    0.15070841 Gupta
    0.15311469 Dusadh-Maratha-Chamar-Yadava
    0.16553554 Kurdish-Persian
    0.16569026 Chenchu-Relli
    0.17236668 Uzbek
    0.17616646 Balikesir-Aydin
    0.17683372 Kabardin-Circassian-Karachay-Abazin
    0.17763935 Pallan-Sakilli-Madiga
    0.17765783 Avar-Lak-Kubachinian-Tabasaran
    0.18517518 Ingushian-Chechen-Adygei
    0.19096950 Adana-Kayseri
    0.20319179 Abkhasian-Imer-Ossetian
    0.20878408 Hazara-Uygur
    0.21134740 Chuvash-Udmurt-Besermyan
    0.21834672 Armenian-Assyrian
    0.22596838 Trabzon-Laz
    0.24057641 Jordanian-Palestinian-Bedouin-Syrian
    0.24137005 Crete-Kos
    0.24224156 Samaritan-Lebanese-Druze


    Target: jdufh _scaled
    Distance: 2.5396% / 0.02539577
    76.4 Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj
    12.2 Gupta
    5.2 Abkhasian-Imer-Ossetian
    3.6 Avar-Lak-Kubachinian-Tabasaran
    1.8 Surui-Karitiana
    0.8 Papuan-Kosipe-Koinanbe

    0 - 1000 BCE (Iron Age) G25 Calculator

    Target: jdufh_scaled
    Distance: 2.7933% / 0.02793262
    79.6 SWAT-VALLEY
    11.6 DRAVIDIAN
    6.0 MACEDONIAN
    2.0 URAL-CIMMERIAN
    0.8 SARMATIAN-POKROVKA

    G25 ancient 2500 BCE - 2000 BCE calculator

    Target: jdufh_scaled
    Distance: 2.2603% / 0.02260254
    45.0 INDUS-VALLEY-CIVILIZATION
    31.4 BACTRIA-MARGIANA
    10.6 BRITAIN-CA-EBA
    7.4 URAL-SIBERIA
    4.8 CZECH-EBA
    0.8 ARMENIA-EBA
    Possibly Awan, with Khatri family and a Northern Iranian Ancestor a few generations ago.

  16. #50
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    Model her with just modern groups from Punjab + modern groups from Iran and see what happens. Then throw in Sindhi, Dards and UP groups and see what happens.

    If she is modeling as majority Kohistani or Gujjar or Arain or something, remove that group from the next run and see what she models as without it.
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 08-01-2020 at 06:22 PM.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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