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Thread: Z16434

  1. #1
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    Z16434

    I was wondering what anyone's thoughts are regarding R-Z16434 and downstream mutations.

    I fall under R-Z18136 which is mostly comprised of Murphys and people who happen to know they are Murphy. I've seen estimates of the age of the MRCA being estimated at about 410 years old on the Big Y Tree, however one of the Murphys has ancestors born in the 1600s that ended up in the Colonies. In any case I am very interested in learning more about them. There is a sibling block to R-Z18136 called R-BY98445 has a Murphy and a Murfee. Very excited to learn more.

    Kevin Murphy

  2. #2
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    R1b-Z255
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    K1C1B

    Ireland Ireland Leinster Ireland County Tipperary
    This is a thread that discusses years per ySNP to date most common ancestors titled ' Explanations for varying rates of Y-Chromosome mutation'. Robert Casey has done a lot of great work with the O'Brien surname. There is also a great talk at Genetic Genealogy Ireland - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp-1bfxaXYs

    In terms of Murphys under Z255 there are two clusters yours and some under Z77_1 (that are connected to the Kavanaghs). You can see these in the table in the FTDNA Z255 project or in the relevant ydna surname project. It was pointed out to me by Paul MacCotter of UCC that the Murphys of Leinster likely have two origins (though connected) one being the McMurrough/Kavanaghs (in the 1100s) and the others the O'Murphys of Ofelimy (who branched off some hundreds of years earlier but still part of the Ui Chennselaig branch). There are some interesting hypotheses to test here that go to the validity (or not) of the genealogy of the Kings of Leinster.

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     Murphy (08-18-2020)

  4. #3
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    L21>L226>FGC5639

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    The path to your haplogroup, Z18136 is as follows:

    Z255 > L159 > Z16434 > Z18136

    I completed an extensive review of Z255 a little over one year ago. Here are the files from this analysis.
    The first file is the source data for all analysis in EXCEL (requires MS Office):

    http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/Temp/Z255_...20190413C.xlsx

    The second file is the input file for the charting tool SAPP by David Vance:

    http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/Temp/Z255_..._20190413A.txt

    Here is output files (image and html file - same content):

    http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/Temp/Z255_..._20190413B.png

    http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/Temp/Z255_..._20190413A.htm

    The last is a very cursory pass at a Executive Summary of the analysis:

    http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/Temp/Z255_..._20190402A.pdf

    Feel free to ask questions about this review. I was really surprised that Z255 is only 2030 YBP according to BigTree. I confirmed that it has
    a single YSTR signature and YSNP prediction was 98 % accurate which is a pretty high accuracy. The downside - Z255 is too large of haplogroup
    for SAPP to chart. The current limit of SAPP is around 600 testers (recently improved from 500 testers). I found 454 confirmed Z255 testers
    and another 661 predicted testers at 98 % accuracy. The total is 1,115 which far exceeds the limit of SAPP, so I have to remove many
    Z255 testers from the analysis for charting.
    Last edited by RobertCasey; 08-15-2020 at 05:32 AM.

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     CillKenny (08-15-2020),  Elle_Emsey (12-15-2020),  Murphy (08-18-2020),  sheepslayer (01-19-2021)

  6. #4
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    There have been some updates to my group of Murphys. I am currently R-FT139021 downstream of R-Z18136. Kind of strange that an SNP between Z18136 and R-FGC33028 was found called R-FGC79206.

  7. #5
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    The man I share R-FT139021 with only matches me at the 12 and 25 levels. Then 8 out of 617 differences. Strange that we shared this new SNP, but not with others who tested Big Y and matched us at the higher levels.

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    I now have 3 new SNPs as shared with my 3rd cousin twice removed!

  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CillKenny View Post
    This is a thread that discusses years per ySNP to date most common ancestors titled ' Explanations for varying rates of Y-Chromosome mutation'. Robert Casey has done a lot of great work with the O'Brien surname. There is also a great talk at Genetic Genealogy Ireland - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp-1bfxaXYs

    In terms of Murphys under Z255 there are two clusters yours and some under Z77_1 (that are connected to the Kavanaghs). You can see these in the table in the FTDNA Z255 project or in the relevant ydna surname project. It was pointed out to me by Paul MacCotter of UCC that the Murphys of Leinster likely have two origins (though connected) one being the McMurrough/Kavanaghs (in the 1100s) and the others the O'Murphys of Ofelimy (who branched off some hundreds of years earlier but still part of the Ui Chennselaig branch). There are some interesting hypotheses to test here that go to the validity (or not) of the genealogy of the Kings of Leinster.
    I have an additional hypothesis to add into the two dynasty which these two Murphy families descend from. The modal Cavanaugh genetic family in the project at FTDNA shares close connections with one of the Murphy clusters downstream of R-ZZ7_1 and they also share high level matches with several Kinsellas. This seems to imply these are the McMurrough/Kavanaugh/Kinsellas branch. Kinsella also descends from one of Diarmaid Mac Murchadha's sons. Just goes to show the sort of education this family may have had given the ancestor several centuries earlier from which the name was likely adopted.

    I have reached out to some of the men of the O'Morchoe family hoping they might test their Y DNA. If my group is not the Hy Felimy, it might be possible they are descended from the O'Moroghoe's Police(probably translated from Gardaí) the soldiers maintained by the Hy Felimy. They certainly would have selected very carefully who entrust with the role. Likely a possible explanation for some families married into the dynasty that may have adopted the surname as a show of allegiance? In any case my own genetic family is at least twice the size of the second largest group. Currently R-Z18138 without any doubt originated from a Murphy. It also appears to correlate with Dermod Muimneach O'Moroghoe entering Munster around the 13th century as reported in the Irish Pedigrees. Perhaps he is in fact the ancestor of my Murphy family. Now it just comes down to understanding what his connection was to the Hy Felimy and how plausible such conclusions can be.

    In any case, I believe the time is fast approaching where evidence will very strongly point toward something not so far from what the history claims. There are aspects of these old genealogies which are certainly suspect if not propaganda past our understanding, but again the evidence, as you say, will test the validity.

    I am still incredibly interested in the O'hIongardail Harrington family that shares R-ZZ9 with us.
    I am hoping one of the Conrick/Kendrick will upgrade to a Big Y. There is an interesting story of a son of some sort of noble or gentry told not to leave Ireland. I wonder if that might be due to infidelity. They had estates in Tipperary where these Conrick and Kendrick men stem from, and STRs that cluster with the modal Murphys. There are some more Big Y testers, one which may fall into either genetic family, their STRs hover between both groups.
    Last edited by Murphy; 05-07-2021 at 10:13 PM.

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     CillKenny (05-08-2021)

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