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Thread: Graeco-Bactrians, Indo-Greeks, Seleucids et. al.

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    Graeco-Bactrians, Indo-Greeks, Seleucids et. al.

    Hi all,

    So I noticed a tendency on here for us to compartmentalise our thinking on a particular, discrete area by creating specialised threads. Hence we have the very helpful threads on here relating to e.g. UP Syed results, Turkic/Mongol influence amongst South Asians etc.

    In that spirit, I thought it would be helpful for us to collate our thinking on the genetic impact of the "Greeks" in modern-day South Asians in a single space. By "Greeks", I mean not just the actual Hellenics who came to South Asia, but rather all those who ended up in our neck of the woods due to participation in the various Greek projects in the East.

    I know we've had some discussion on this topic elsewhere, and that there was a similar-ish thread a few years ago. But it struck me that we now have a slightly more refined picture (although far from clear) of the admixture these folk may have left behind in us, and the possibility of Greek origins does seem to crop up in discussion more often these days. We also seem to have several members on here who take a real interest in this particular area, myself included, either just out of interest or because their results show signals of a minor, ancient Mediterranean-like input that could reflect Graeco-Bactrian or Indo-Greek descent.

    As such, I'd like it if we could use this space to share our results, oracles, reading, research and any other materials of relevance to the title topic. Ultimately, it would be nice if we could work towards gaining greater clarity on what Indo-Greek admixture might look like in modern-day South Asians, in terms of Gedmatch results and G25; to what extent that admixture persists in the subcontinent; and whether there are any particular patterns associated with its distribution.

    Happy posting!
    Last edited by Ahmed Ali; 08-02-2020 at 12:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Ali View Post
    I've been playing around with G25 recently, and whatever the Med component is, it's something very western shifted (Iberian, Basque, Sardinian) as opposed to west-asian. Grandpa also lacks levantine or any elevated iran admix at all so a recent ancestor from the MENA region is, I think, out of the question. However, given his family traditions of migration from 'Khorasan' and the gazillion Afghan matches he gets on 23andme and elsewhere, I'm leaning towards a recent-ish Afghan ancestor who may have carried some old hellenic admixture.
    Continuing here,

    Have you tried modelling with any Magna Graecia or equivalent samples if they are available? As I have recently started to learn about it, hoping if I could learn from any experience/learning you have concerning Magna Graecia if you have.
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 06-12-2021 at 05:48 PM.

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     Ahmed Ali (06-13-2021)

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Continuing here,

    Have you tried modelling with any Magna Graecia or equivalent samples if they are available? As I have recently started to learn about it, hoping if I could learn from any experience/learning you have concerning Magna Graecia if you have.
    Sadly not, I've been quite distracted recently and haven't devoted much time to this. I'd be interested to swap notes, though. Hellenic admixture is something I'm very interested to probe further. In my own family's case, I think the Basque-like signal I'm seeing is attributable to either minor Afghan Qizilbash or hellenic-era admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Ali View Post
    Sadly not, I've been quite distracted recently and haven't devoted much time to this. I'd be interested to swap notes, though. Hellenic admixture is something I'm very interested to probe further. In my own family's case, I think the Basque-like signal I'm seeing is attributable to either minor Afghan Qizilbash or hellenic-era admixture.
    No worries, You can take a look at my post here, haven’t deep dived into this, yet

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post777506

    Presently going through threads that are relevant to this topic.

    One of them, probably,

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....dern-Itallians

    From my understanding, Anatolian Greek and Mainland/Island Greeks are genetically different or there were genetic differences between them, though I don’t know of Anatolian coast/Aegean sea part of Anatolia if they are/were closer to other Aegean sea or Anatolian Greeks.

    Aegean Sea

    https://www.worldhistory.org/uploads...g?v=1618731905

    Qizilbash or Kizilbash (Ottoman Turkish: قزيل باش‎; Turkish: Kızılbaş, lit. 'Red head' Turkish pronunciation: [kɯzɯɫbaʃ]; Azerbaijani: Qızılbaş, Persian: قزلباش‎, romanized: Qezelbāš), were a wide variety of mainly Turkoman[1] Shia militant groups that flourished in Iranian Azerbaijan,[2][3] Anatolia and Kurdistan from the late 15th century onwards, and contributed to the foundation of the Safavid dynasty of Iran.[4][5]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash

    Qizilbash if they carried any Greek ancestry that would be of Anatolian Greek, no?

    But, your GF prefers Mainland Greek related ancestry, right?

    Can you share your GF’s Admix calculator results/Models and findings?
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 06-14-2021 at 10:49 AM.

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    As you see in this clustering, Greeks, Tuscans, Nogais and Sicilians are pretty close. if you get any of these in calculators then you have some Greek. I get few percent Nogais on most calculators, also Tuscan show up big numbers on one-to-one. On the mytrueAn ancient Greeks from Helladic era and Bronze age show up real big noticeable levels on my kits. K15 shows 4% East med and small west med which is probably this.
    However to tell the different ones like Gandhara, Selucid or Yavanas is tough job. if you match any of the Roopkund greek like those are recent Greek, then there are some Swat greek like. if you don't matche any of those but match other Med kits directly then you have to do further research to find out.
    Y: H1a1a4b3b1a8 Yfull id-> YF83218
    Medals->Hidden Content
    mtDNA:U2a1a2
    G25 Ancients Dist 1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 88.4 MAR_Taforalt 2.6NPL_Mebrak 5
    VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA 4 Hidden Content

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    No worries, You can take a look at my post here, haven’t deep dived into this, yet

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post777506

    Presently going through threads that are relevant to this topic.

    One of them, probably,

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....dern-Itallians

    From my understanding, Anatolian Greek and Mainland/Island Greeks are genetically different or there were genetic differences between them, though I don’t know of Anatolian coast/Aegean sea part of Anatolia if they are/were closer to other Aegean sea or Anatolian Greeks.

    Aegean Sea

    https://www.worldhistory.org/uploads...g?v=1618731905



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash

    Qizilbash if they carried any Greek ancestry that would be of Anatolian Greek, no?

    But, your GF prefers Mainland Greek related ancestry, right?

    Can you share your GF’s Admix calculator results/Models and findings?
    Thanks for this. I'll take a look at those links. Tbh I'm not that clued up on the differences between Anatolian/Island Greeks but I'd be interested to learn more.

    So my grandfather actually seems to prefer something Iberian/Italic/Basque/Sardinian. He gets better fits with those populations than with Greek samples.

    I've been trying to figure out the provenance of this admixture in him for a while. As I mentioned elsewhere, I am now almost certain he has some recent Afghan ancestry, which I believe may be the source of his EEF. But given that Afghan Pashtuns are not super EEF enriched, I experimented with the idea that he may have had a Tajik or Qizilbash ancestor, the latter generally having more EEF due to recent ancestry from NW Iran/Azerbaijan/Armenia. His matches across various commercial platforms may also lend some credence to this idea.

    However, other more learned members on here have suggested that Hellenic-era Southern European ancestry could be a possibility too. In particular, I remember Pegasus mentioning there was a Swat sample from the Seleucid era which showed a similar type of admix on Harappa to that which my grandad has.

    Grandad's also not Baloch depressed which may suggest the Med is from an older source.

    I'd be happy to share his results - which ones would you like to see?
    Last edited by Ahmed Ali; 06-15-2021 at 11:03 AM.

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    Here are a few models kindly done for me by other members over the past year or so:

    "sample": "Custom:InayatAli_scaled",
    "fit": 1.9557,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2": 62.5,
    "KAZ_Kangju": 30,
    "ITA_Rome_Imperial--RMPR37": 7.5,

    Target: InayatAli_scaled
    Distance: 2.5106% / 0.02510642
    70.6 North_West_Indian
    22.8 Bengali
    6.4 South_West_European
    0.2 Balochistani

    Target: InayatAli_scaled
    Distance: 2.6616% / 0.02661575
    77.6 Indus_Valley
    16.6 South_India
    3.0 Sardinian
    2.8 Celtic

    Target: InayatAli_scaled
    Distance: 2.3245% / 0.02324502
    73.8 Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj
    19.6 Dusadh-Maratha-Chamar-Yadava
    6.6 Basque

    Here are his Harappa oracles:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 92% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 8% morocco-jew (behar) @ 1.64
    2 92.1% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 7.9% sephardic-jew (behar) @ 1.72
    3 91.8% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 8.2% ashkenazy-jew (behar) @ 1.75
    4 87% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 13% romanian-b (behar) @ 1.76
    5 92% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 8% ashkenazi (harappa) @ 1.81
    6 92.3% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 7.7% tuscan (1000genomes) @ 1.94
    7 94.1% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 5.9% sardinian (hgdp) @ 2.22
    8 92.8% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 7.2% italian (hgdp) @ 2.24
    9 92.9% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 7.1% cypriot (behar) @ 2.31
    10 94.4% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 5.6% sardinian (hgdp) @ 2.37
    11 94.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 5.9% tunisia (henn2012) @ 2.37
    12 92.7% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 7.3% puerto-rican (1000genomes) @ 2.39
    13 93.1% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 6.9% egypt (henn2012) @ 2.4
    14 91.7% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 8.3% turk-aydin (hodoglugil) @ 2.43
    15 93.8% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 6.2% morocco-n (henn2012) @ 2.44
    16 95.1% punjabi (harappa) + 4.9% basque (hgdp) @ 2.46
    17 95% punjabi (harappa) + 5% spain-basc (henn2012) @ 2.51
    18 92.6% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 7.4% lebanese (behar) @ 2.51
    19 93.1% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 6.9% palestinian (hgdp) @ 2.58
    20 92.8% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 7.2% bulgarian (yunusbayev) @ 2.59

    It's pretty much the same pattern across all calcs - a very Punjabi like base + something minor West Med. What it's proxying for, however, is still a mystery.

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    Thanks for sharing these, your GF results are interesting , results like these help in understanding history better.

    Can you share the co-ordinates

    There are 4 components associated with Indo - Greek, three directly associated with Greek and one with Thracian ( Skudra ),

    Mainland/Island Greek + Anatolian Greek + Magna Graecia + Skudra ( Thracian )

    What is your tribe/caste/clan/region, I believe your Rajput. As Rajput have many clans, do you know your clan? Considering you are Rajput it would be less likely it was brought be Roman traders, it would more likely brought by some warriors.

    As Pashtuns many clans, do you have clan/region level ANF breakdown for them?

    In archaeogenetics, the terms Early European Farmers (EEF), First European Farmers (FEF), Neolithic European Farmers or Ancient Aegean Farmers (ANF) are names given to a distinct ancestral component that represents descent from early Neolithic farmers of Europe.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_European_Farmers

    So, EEF is same as ANF, how much ANF do you score ?

    Again ANF sources can be Barcin, Boncuklu, Kumtepe and TepecikCiftlik

    TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
    TUR_Boncuklu_N,0.1142784,0.1679686,0.0128974,-0.0709954,0.0554564,-0.0378732,-0.0038072,-0.0037382,0.0340328,0.0773408,0.0096784,0.014747,-0.0301784,0.0010736,-0.0390874,-0.0059402,0.0283978,0.0045102,0.0093016,-0.0092796,-0.009583,0.009645,-0.0096132,-0.0117366,-0.003952
    TUR_Kumtepe_N,0.106994,0.174671,-0.015839,-0.077843,0.019696,-0.034304,-0.015746,-0.007154,0.028429,0.055764,0.009094,0.018883,-0.02661,0.018717,-0.027144,-0.012331,0.005998,-0.010895,0.0225,-0.006753,-0.007861,0.001113,-0.006409,-0.003012,0.005748
    TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,0.108701,0.1731478,-0.0143308,-0.100534,0.0270818,-0.0402298,-0.0045828,-0.005019,0.02623,0.05745,0.008444,0.0080555,-0.0101832,0.0052298,-0.0352192,-0.0104748,0.0088662,0.0004432,0.005342,-0.0032828,0.0026827,0.0044515,-0.0071795,-0.0038258,-0.0045805


    You can plot them on West Eurasia and see they are genetically quite distinct

    https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#WestEurasia

    Is ANF source between all Pasthuns are same, is it same as South Asians, what is the ANF source/s of SA, do all SA's have same ANF Source? comparing this with after finding out if Anatolian Greeks, Mainland Greek, Magna Graecia and Thracians have same or different ANF based source/s, will help in narrow down options.
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 06-15-2021 at 01:26 PM.

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    Thanks for your observations. I'd be more than happy to share my grandad's coordinates. I've been trying to crack this puzzle for a while, so any thoughts you have would be gratefully received.

    InayatAli_scaled,0.072847,-0.005078,-0.108611,0.081396,-0.068936,0.045738,0.00235,0.008538,0.007567,0.0065 6,-0.006983,0.007793,0.000149,-0.015551,0.009365,0.011403,0.013038,0.001647,-0.004399,-0.007128,0.006988,0.001731,0.001356,-0.002651,0.000599

    ,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
    InayatAli,0.0064,-0.0005,-0.0288,0.0252,-0.0224,0.0164,0.001,0.0037,0.0037,0.0036,-0.0043,0.0052,0.0001,-0.0113,0.0069,0.0086,0.01,0.0013,-0.0035,-0.0057,0.0056,0.0014,0.0011,-0.0022,0.0005

    In relation to your questions, my grandad is indeed Rajput, from Punjab, although I tend to take this with a pinch of salt. His mother was Bhatti Rajput from Wazirabad and his paternal grandmother was a Sulehri Rajput from Pasrur, but the caste identity of his paternal grandfather is unknown. We grew up hearing that his family was from Khorasan. Looking at my grandfather's results on 23andme and elsewhere, I think it's probable he was 1/2 Afghan. So the Rajput tag is something we got from our female ancestors it would seem, but again I'm unsure on the exact details.

    In terms of the source of ANF/EEF in South and South-Central Asia I believe this is yet to be resolved. Some is linked to the Eurasian Steppe; for example some Jatts show a pattern of high levels of NE Euro and Med in Harappa I believe. But my grandfather kinda sticks out because he lacks that elevated NE Euro. Other members have pointed out to me that some Steppic cultures, for example Poptakova, were potentially much more EEF shifted than Sinstashta and others, so this could be another explanation. I don't have any data on ANF/EEF in Pashtuns sadly, but have learned from other members that Kandahari Pashtuns may be slightly more enriched for it due to extra Iran-Chl admix.

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    Last edited by Ahmed Ali; 06-15-2021 at 02:23 PM. Reason: formatting issue

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