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Thread: Graeco-Bactrians, Indo-Greeks, Seleucids et. al.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Here is a thread where L657 will be located running from nearly last 6 years with no trace of L657/Y40 on steppe or above, steppe is already well sampled, right?

    ...


    what is the evidence for Z93 in Greece today from West Asians or Sarmatians/Scythians ?
    First Z93 is hardly present in Greece.

    Second there is one L657 sample from Crete and that sample perfectly matches the Roma L657 STR, indicating ultimately an Indian origin.

    Third, much of Greek, especially Greek Macedonian, R1a is M458 - the Slavic variety of R1a-Z283.
    Greece (2 locations) 263 12.9 9.1 4.2 Updated from 8 32.5%
    Greeks, Macedonia 57 12.8 1.8 8.8 Updated from 8 66.4%
    https://static-content.springer.com/...OESM21_ESM.pdf
    We also know that the more isolated Cretan Lasithi R1a1 is of the Balkan type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    First Z93 is hardly present in Greece.
    We need to have samples on Yfull what subclades they belong, if under Y40 or L657 if they form there own group and whether they form basal clade or closer to basal clades.

    Why should principle on the basis of modern distribution be applied to Steppe ( of Eastern Europe) and above ( Eastern European) as there is Zero as per per modern distribution and other places than in SCA/SA were distribution is singe digits, as well, If I am right.

    So. if it is be based on modern distribution, then it's origins should be in SCA/SA, right ?

    However, there is clear genetic trail from Bosporus strait in terms of countries as per modern distribution( Expect Egypt likely due to under-sampling) which can be explained of single event and/or subsequent events also to be seen if L657 gets basal from east to west.

    Once dominant clade/s can be a very minor clade in a region based on the population history of a region, one of the reason for once dominant clade to be very minor it could be also because they were involved in large scale migration elsewhere and another one being, large scale migration of new people/s as you pointed one of them being Slavic migration.


    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Second there is one L657 sample from Crete and that sample perfectly matches the Roma L657 STR, indicating ultimately an Indian origin.
    Were did get the Roma STR from, which study it is based from? This study has not found any L657

    Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015201

    R Haplogroups found in Roma as per the study,

    Haplogroup

    R-L23
    R-L48
    R-M17
    R-M269
    R-M458
    R-M73
    R-P312
    R-U152
    R-L2
    R-U106
    R-L20
    R-L21
    R-M124
    R-P311
    R-SRY10831.2
    R-SRY2627

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post

    Third, much of Greek, especially Greek Macedonian, R1a is M458 - the Slavic variety of R1a-Z283.
    Greece (2 locations) 263 12.9 9.1 4.2 Updated from 8 32.5%
    Greeks, Macedonia 57 12.8 1.8 8.8 Updated from 8 66.4%
    https://static-content.springer.com/...OESM21_ESM.pdf
    We also know that the more isolated Cretan Lasithi R1a1 is of the Balkan type.

    According to historical documents, the Slavs invaded and settled in parts of Greece beginning in 579 and Byzantium nearly lost control of the entire peninsula during the 580s. However, there is no archaeological evidence indicating Slavic penetration of imperial Byzantine territories before the end of the 6th century.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Greece

    Slavic expansion post dates Hellenic league migration not sure how does this answer question, but makes it clear it was a major migration or had a major genetic impact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    We need to have samples on Yfull what subclades they belong, if under Y40 or L657 if they form there own group and whether they form basal clade or closer to basal clades.

    Why should principle on the basis of modern distribution be applied to Steppe ( of Eastern Europe) and above ( Eastern European) as there is Zero as per per modern distribution and other places than in SCA/SA were distribution is singe digits, as well, If I am right.

    So. if it is be based on modern distribution, then it's origins should be in SCA/SA, right ?

    However, there is clear genetic trail from Bosporus strait in terms of countries as per modern distribution( Expect Egypt likely due to under-sampling) which can be explained of single event and/or subsequent events also to be seen if L657 gets basal from east to west.

    Once dominant clade/s can be a very minor clade in a region based on the population history of a region, one of the reason for once dominant clade to be very minor it could be also because they were involved in large scale migration elsewhere and another one being, large scale migration of new people/s as you pointed one of them being Slavic migration.




    Were did get the Roma STR from, which study it is based from? This study has not found any L657



    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015201

    R Haplogroups found in Roma as per the study,

    Haplogroup

    R-L23
    R-L48
    R-M17
    R-M269
    R-M458
    R-M73
    R-P312
    R-U152
    R-L2
    R-U106
    R-L20
    R-L21
    R-M124
    R-P311
    R-SRY10831.2
    R-SRY2627






    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Greece

    Slavic expansion post dates Hellenic league migration not sure how does this answer question, but makes it clear it was a major migration or had a major genetic impact.
    There is hardly any L657 in Turkey today and basically no pre-Roma L657 in Europe including Greece/Balkan. In the beat case ou will see some Y3* in the Balkan during the Bronze Age which later became extinct. Even the Y40 in Italy and Turkey vry unlikely came from Europe or the Balkan and rather from West Asia.

    Nothing suggests so far that Y40 or L657 had any significant presence after 1500-2000 B.C in regions west of Abashevo/Srubnaya and even there it probably became extinct around 1500 B.C if not earlier. If there was some Z93 contributing to Proto-Greeks it would rather be basal Z93, Y3 and Z2124 clades from western Abashevo/Srubnaya and not clades like Y40 or L657 which early left Abashevo and came from it most eastern subgroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    ...



    Were did get the Roma STR from, which study it is based from? This study has not found any L657...
    Europe Roma 30 Modal 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10
    South Europe Cretan 1 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10


    Roma L657 samples:
    https://static-content.springer.com/...OESM15_ESM.xls
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 12
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 11 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 11 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 24 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 24 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 ND 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 11 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 9 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 16 23 12
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Slovakian Roma M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Slovakian Roma M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Slovakian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 13
    Roma Slovakian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Europe Roma 30 Modal 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10
    South Europe Cretan 1 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10


    Roma L657 samples:
    https://static-content.springer.com/...OESM15_ESM.xls
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Croatian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 12
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 11 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 11 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 24 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 24 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 ND 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 11 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 9 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 12
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 16 23 12
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Hungarian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Slovakian Roma M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Slovakian Roma M576 15 12 13 19 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13
    Roma Slovakian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 13
    Roma Slovakian Roma M576 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 15 16 23 13

    From the table2,

    "Y-STR haplotype diversity
    sub-haplogroup haplotypes total haplotype diversity*
    R-M420 6 1.000
    R-M417 8 1.000
    R-Z282 39 0.999
    R-M458 153 0.998
    R-M558 267 0.999
    R-Z284 39 0.997
    R-Z93 75 0.976
    R-Z93 Near/Middle East 7 0.952
    R-Z93 S Siberia 41 0.921
    R-Z95 15 0.971
    R-M582 Near/Middle East 13 0.974
    R-M582 Jews 22 0.844
    R-M780 105 0.979
    R-M780 South Asia 26 0.994
    R-M780 Central Asia 36 0.998
    R-M780 Roma 31 0.759
    R-Z2125 208 0.990
    R-Z2125 Kyrgyzes 85 0.962
    R-Z2125 Afghanistan 80 0.974
    R-Z2125 Near/Middle East 19 0.994"


    Notably, R1a-M780 (Figure 3d) occurs at high frequency in South Asia: India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the Himalayas. The group also occurs at >3% in some Iranian populations and is present at >30% in Roma from Croatia and Hungary, consistent with previous studies reporting the presence of R1a-Z93 in Roma.31, 51
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201450


    What is found among Roma is it L657, M780 or M576?

    What exactly is the difference in terms of STR/SNP between L657, M780 and M576?

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    From the table2,

    "Y-STR haplotype diversity
    sub-haplogroup haplotypes total haplotype diversity*
    R-M420 6 1.000
    R-M417 8 1.000
    R-Z282 39 0.999
    R-M458 153 0.998
    R-M558 267 0.999
    R-Z284 39 0.997
    R-Z93 75 0.976
    R-Z93 Near/Middle East 7 0.952
    R-Z93 S Siberia 41 0.921
    R-Z95 15 0.971
    R-M582 Near/Middle East 13 0.974
    R-M582 Jews 22 0.844
    R-M780 105 0.979
    R-M780 South Asia 26 0.994
    R-M780 Central Asia 36 0.998
    R-M780 Roma 31 0.759
    R-Z2125 208 0.990
    R-Z2125 Kyrgyzes 85 0.962
    R-Z2125 Afghanistan 80 0.974
    R-Z2125 Near/Middle East 19 0.994"




    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201450


    What is found among Roma is it L657, M780 or M576?

    What exactly is the difference in terms of STR/SNP between L657, M780 and M576?
    For this paper all M780 were also L657. So all Roma are M780+ and L657+
    Worldwide there are a few M780 that are negative for L657.

    Unfortunately that M576 is a typo in the paper for L657.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    For this paper all M780 were also L657. So all Roma are M780+ and L657+
    Worldwide there are a few M780 that are negative for L657.

    Unfortunately that M576 is a typo in the paper for L657.

    From Yfull tree,

    SNPs currently defining R-Y3
    Y3 / F2597 / M727
    Y26 / M780

    Would M780+ and 657- mean Y3?

    Did the Sredny Stog culture R1a sample belonged to this?




    There are 31 Roma samples with 14 different types based on 19 STR, Crete has only 10 available

    Isn't it possible that a Crete sample could have non - Roma L657 lineage, if checked for 111 or 500 or 700 STR? How does it actually work ?



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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    From Yfull tree,

    SNPs currently defining R-Y3
    Y3 / F2597 / M727
    Y26 / M780

    Would M780+ and 657- mean Y3?

    Did the Sredny Stog culture R1a sample belonged to this?




    There are 31 Roma samples with 14 different types based on 19 STR, Crete has only 10 available

    Isn't it possible that a Crete sample could have non - Roma L657 lineage, if checked for 111 or 500 or 700 STR? How does it actually work ?
    ...
    I6561 sample in Sredny Stog II Alexandria is M417 Y26.
    I6561 Alexandria Ukraine 4045-3974 BC M459 M198 M417
    R1a-Z645: Z650 +, Z651 +
    R1a-Z93: Z2479 +
    R1a-Z94: Z95 +
    R1a-Y3: Y26 +, Y2-
    The Reich team now thinks that this dating may be incorrect as the date does not match the dna.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post739439
    EDIT: The page at the link has now been removed.
    "I6561 I6561 Mos70, Skeleton 5, 88 knees up tooth 2018 MathiesonNature2018 Pinhasi, Ron Context: Layer date based on 6 20-28 cM IBD individuals with Srubnaya/Alakul/Kazakhstan_MLBA individuals from 3900-3400 [based on these genetic results we ignore the direct date of 4153-3970 calBCE (521520 BP, PSUAMS-2832) from same site calibrated as 95.4%; IntCal20, OxCal v4.4.2 Bronk Ramsey (2020); r:5; Atmospheric data from Reimer et al (2020)] 5600 144 3900-3400 BCE Ukraine_MBA Alexandria Ukraine 49.54067778 37.69799444 1240K 1 1.422231 738261 .. M n/a (no relatives detected) R1a1a1 438 H2a1a"


    Possible, but highly unlikely. An exact match at these STRs indicates a recent common ancestor. "South Europe Cretan 1 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10"
    All the Roma are close around the Roma modal noted by Underhill - "Europe Roma 30 Modal 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10" - which means they are all likely descended from a bottleneck of perhaps just one ancestor.

    In general, while 111 or higher STRs may give some more resolution, it is more worthwhile, IMO, to just check the full genome for SNPs. That would make papers on Y dna much more productive and informative.
    Last edited by parasar; 07-25-2021 at 03:18 PM.

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    United States of America Pakistan
    “The Legacy of Alexander the Great in Central Asia, Bactria and India“
    -with Professor Osmund Bopearachchi
    on Mike Stratis Show
    -epilogue with Esmeralda Mourikis
    -special thanks to Mrs P. Grigorakou
    for making this opportunity possible
    COSMOS FM Radio New York
    aired on August 5 2020
     

    distance: 2.13
    sample: Kapisa (Kapisa)
    CG IVCp IRN Shahr I Sokhta BA2 I8728: 42.5
    Dzharkutan1 BA Average: 37.5
    Srubnaya Alakul MLBA Average: 17
    Chokhopani 2700BP Average: 3

    sample: Kapisa:Kapisa-Dad
    distance: 2.0944
    Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 I8728: 41.5
    Bustan_BA Average: 37
    Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA Average: 19
    Chokhopani_2700BP Average: 2.5

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