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Thread: Iranian G25

  1. #271
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    I was about to mention in my previous comment that I was leaning more and more in favor of the theory posited by someone in Davidski's comment section that the Yazd Zoroastrians were actually from east of Iran originally, at least partially. DMXX's comment just lends extra credence to that theory. It would be a reasonable explanation as to why both their steppe and their BMAC ancestry seems elevated based on Davidski's runs.

    Some of the explanations that people have given here did not really make sense. Zoroastrians lack the east Asian admixture found among the Muslims of the region but this ancestry is quite small(2-4%). Even if it came from a Turkmen mediator as opposed to directly from a Golden Horde type group, then there's not really a reason why their steppe would end up being depressed as Turkmen themselves are fairly high steppe IIRC.

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  3. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Zoroastrians lack the east Asian admixture found among the Muslims of the region but this ancestry is quite small(2-4%). Even if it came from a Turkmen mediator as opposed to directly from a Golden Horde type group, then there's not really a reason why their steppe would end up being depressed as Turkmen themselves are fairly high steppe IIRC.
    I agree in principle, and would've agreed outright, had this discussion occurred earlier last year or in 2019.

    The longstanding, simplistic axiom vis--vis the genetic contribution of the various Turkic migration events (i.e. it was predominantly associated with East Eurasian ancestry) in the Iranian plateau is no longer tenable.

    We have it from Jeong et al. 2020 that the Turkic period samples from Mongolia ranged from 16-73%(!) "Alan-Sarmatian", with one of the outlier samples (TUK001) being a near-clean 50:50 split of Turanian agriculturalist (Gonur1_BA) and Alan-Sarmatian (this individual was likely a Soghdian IMO - Potentially a forerunner?).

    That accompanies the findings of Damgaard et al. 2018 quite well, who'd found that East Eurasian admixture increased from the Gokturk to the Medieval Turkish period (though I don't see any qpAdm proportions for those samples; only Scythians; there's an ADMIXTURE chart for the Huns and Turks, but the assignments aren't stated).

    I'm having some difficulty replicating Jeong's qpAdm setup in G25, but an "elemental" style assessment of the Medieval Turks based on some alternative findings reveals the following (from GenoPlot):

    Sample Fit Sintashta MLBA • Average Gonur1 BA • Average Devils Gate Cave N • Average Amur River EN • Average West Siberia N • Average
    KAZ Turk ► Average 2.93 45 22.5 19 13.5 0
    KAZ Kipchak ► Average 3.12 37 22.5 27 13.5 0
    KAZ Kimak ► Average 4.8 24.5 22 20.5 17.5 15.5
    KAZ Karluk ► Average 2.8 22.5 31 28 16.5 2
    KAZ Karakhanid ► Average 2.54 19.5 25 28.5 18.5 8.5
    KGZ Turk ► Average 4.01 15.5 14 17 33.5 20


    Summarised, the Medieval Turkish samples we currently have vary wildly with respect to both MLBA steppe (11-45%) and East Eurasian (~30-50%) ancestry.

    For what it's worth, the Ottoman sample (MA2195) appears similar (as several of us have recognised for years):

    Sample: TUR Ottoman ► MA2195
    Fit: 3.8773
    Results: Sintashta MLBA • Average 27.5
    Devils Gate Cave N • Average 22.5
    Gonur1 BA • Average 21
    Amur River EN • Average 19.5
    Dali EBA • Average 9.5


    Several of these averages (and the Ottoman sample) either meet or exceed the Iranian Zoroastrian average in G25, so this idea of "component suppression" can't be argued with any confidence, given that a) the MLBA steppe range is astonishingly wide among both early (pre-1st Gokturk) and Medieval Turks, b) we have no aDNA from observably Turkic remains in the Iranian plateau, and c) the range or variation in component scores isn't known right now.
    Last edited by DMXX; 05-02-2021 at 10:04 PM. Reason: edit

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  5. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by zafomafo View Post
    Ankara/Haymana
    Reşwan tribe
    Regards.
    Thanks for providing your scaled coords - Your results, albeit using a different model (GP again):

    Sample: DMXX ► test
    Fit: 3.2021
    Results: Ganj Dareh N • Average 27
    Barcin N • Average 21
    Levant PPNB • Average 19.5
    Yamnaya RUS Samara • Average 19
    GEO CHG • Average 12
    Devils Gate Cave N • Average 1.5


    I refer to this cross-comparison.

    You appear to be in the upper tier for EMBA steppe admix (we score the same).
    A bit confusing to see ~40% TKM_IA in your previous result given the above, but that combo of very-high-EMBA-steppe + higher-than-average CHG probably explains it.
    Last edited by DMXX; 05-02-2021 at 10:25 PM. Reason: line

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  7. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Thanks for providing your scaled coords - Your results, albeit using a different model (GP again):

    Sample: DMXX ► test
    Fit: 3.2021
    Results: Ganj Dareh N • Average 27
    Barcin N • Average 21
    Levant PPNB • Average 19.5
    Yamnaya RUS Samara • Average 19
    GEO CHG • Average 12
    Devils Gate Cave N • Average 1.5


    I refer to this cross-comparison.

    You appear to be in the upper tier for EMBA steppe admix (we score the same).
    A bit confusing to see ~40% TKM_IA in your previous result given the above, but that combo of very-high-EMBA-steppe + higher-than-average CHG probably explains it.
    Target: ZaferGuven_scaled
    Distance: 3.1718% / 0.03171812
    28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    22.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    20.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    18.8 Levant_PPNB
    8.6 GEO_CHG
    1.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
    Btw fit value "3.1718%" is too much. Sintashta or TKM_IA seem like more accurate for Iranic. I scored %22 Sintashta/Andronovo.

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  9. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    I agree in principle, and would've agreed outright, had this discussion occurred earlier last year or in 2019.

    The longstanding, simplistic axiom vis--vis the genetic contribution of the various Turkic migration events (i.e. it was predominantly associated with East Eurasian ancestry) in the Iranian plateau is no longer tenable.

    We have it from Jeong et al. 2020 that the Turkic period samples from Mongolia ranged from 16-73%(!) "Alan-Sarmatian", with one of the outlier samples (TUK001) being a near-clean 50:50 split of Turanian agriculturalist (Gonur1_BA) and Alan-Sarmatian (this individual was likely a Soghdian IMO - Potentially a forerunner?).

    That accompanies the findings of Damgaard et al. 2018 quite well, who'd found that East Eurasian admixture increased from the Gokturk to the Medieval Turkish period (though I don't see any qpAdm proportions for those samples; only Scythians; there's an ADMIXTURE chart for the Huns and Turks, but the assignments aren't stated).

    I'm having some difficulty replicating Jeong's qpAdm setup in G25, but an "elemental" style assessment of the Medieval Turks based on some alternative findings reveals the following (from GenoPlot):

    Sample Fit Sintashta MLBA • Average Gonur1 BA • Average Devils Gate Cave N • Average Amur River EN • Average West Siberia N • Average
    KAZ Turk ► Average 2.93 45 22.5 19 13.5 0
    KAZ Kipchak ► Average 3.12 37 22.5 27 13.5 0
    KAZ Kimak ► Average 4.8 24.5 22 20.5 17.5 15.5
    KAZ Karluk ► Average 2.8 22.5 31 28 16.5 2
    KAZ Karakhanid ► Average 2.54 19.5 25 28.5 18.5 8.5
    KGZ Turk ► Average 4.01 15.5 14 17 33.5 20


    Summarised, the Medieval Turkish samples we currently have vary wildly with respect to both MLBA steppe (11-45%) and East Eurasian (~30-50%) ancestry.

    For what it's worth, the Ottoman sample (MA2195) appears similar (as several of us have recognised for years):

    Sample: TUR Ottoman ► MA2195
    Fit: 3.8773
    Results: Sintashta MLBA • Average 27.5
    Devils Gate Cave N • Average 22.5
    Gonur1 BA • Average 21
    Amur River EN • Average 19.5
    Dali EBA • Average 9.5


    Several of these averages (and the Ottoman sample) either meet or exceed the Iranian Zoroastrian average in G25, so this idea of "component suppression" can't be argued with any confidence, given that a) the MLBA steppe range is astonishingly wide among both early (pre-1st Gokturk) and Medieval Turks, b) we have no aDNA from observably Turkic remains in the Iranian plateau, and c) the range or variation in component scores isn't known right now.
    They do vary substantially and in hindsight it's not surprising to me considering that even modern Turkic speakers are absurdly diverse. My question is, do we actually know it was Turkic groups that were responsible for bringing this east Eurasian ancestry to Iran or could it have been from the Mongols/Golden Horde during or immediately after their conquest of the Khwarezmid empire? I see no reason to write off the latter as a possibility.

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  11. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by zafomafo View Post
    Target: ZaferGuven_scaled
    Distance: 3.1718% / 0.03171812
    28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    22.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    20.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    18.8 Levant_PPNB
    8.6 GEO_CHG
    1.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
    Btw fit value "3.1718%" is too much. Sintashta or TKM_IA seem like more accurate for Iranic. I scored %22 Sintashta/Andronovo.
    The difference in fit is almost certainly because we're using different scripts to run the Monte Carlo (you're using Vahaduo I'd imagine, I'm using GenoPlot's).
    Yes, 3.17% is a bit above the usual accepted range of 2-3%.

    You're correct - Sintashta and TKM_IA are usually the best source for modern W. Iranic-related populations (this is a time-tested observation at this stage).
    It would be interesting to see how you score on qpAdm - Given our similarity in score in G25, you'll likely be around 25-26% MLBA steppe on that.
    G25 underestimates my Eurasian steppe admix by a few percent - Likely the case with you, too.
    [Edit]: Yamnaya scores for W. Asians in that setup are arguably inflated, as 1) the above model doesn't take WSHG ancestry into account, and 2) there's some EHG-related admix in Kura-Araxes, which influenced our ancestral region genetically, and that also isn't taken into account.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    My question is, do we actually know it was Turkic groups that were responsible for bringing this east Eurasian ancestry to Iran or could it have been from the Mongols/Golden Horde during or immediately after their conquest of the Khwarezmid empire? I see no reason to write off the latter as a possibility.
    We don't know for a fact that, in every population and every case where E. Eurasian ancestry is detected, that the source is entirely Turkic and not Mongol.
    We do, however, have some good historical reasons to suspect that the majority of such admix is Turkic and not Mongol (let's be generous and conceptually conjoin the Ilkhanids and Timurids together - Teymur would've loved that):
    - The Seljuks preceded Genghis by almost two centuries. This matters, as generally speaking, the earlier a nomad-originating settlement appears to have been, the larger the genetic impact, particularly if associated with multiple migration waves over a long period of time. We also know that the Seljuks drew in tens of thousands of Turkoman from the former Ghaznavid and Oghuz Yabgu states through their territory (many settled in modern Turkey and the Republic of Azerbaijan). The impetus for some to settle within the centre of the Seljuk realm is worth considering.
    - Many of the Ilkhanid's forces were Turkish soldiers - A large number likely drafted in via their conquest of Khwarezm. We know that Turkish forces were instrumental in the siege of Baghdad.
    - The Mongol elite of the Ilkhanids converted to Islam approx. midway through their reign and made Islam the state religion around 1300 from memory. The ingroup-outgroup dynamic among the locals (predominantly native Iranians who were largely Sunni Muslim by this time) almost certainly would've established itself during the first half of their rule. The perception that the Turks were an outgroup would've been weaker than with the Mongols (both on religious and temporal grounds). I refer to the data concerning modern cross-ethnic/religious marriage in modern Iran, where Persians and Azeris intermarry the most, and at a higher rate than is seen between Azeri-Turkmen and Persian-Kurds. Religion's a strong boundary in that part of the world (as you probably know - If you're really messaging us from the Empty Quarter!)
    - Similarly to the Ilkhanids, the Timurid forces were heavily Turkic. If memory serves me right, it's historically attested that the majority of Teymur's subordinates were Turkic chieftans. However, admittedly, the latest iteration of the Turko-Mongol culturo-social tradition had crystallised by this stage (Teymur himself is a product of that), so I'd actually expect a large proportion of those Turks (who were non-Oghuz speakers by all accounts) had some degree of Mongol ancestry themselves.
    - A crude dynastic count is heavily skewed towards Turkic-derived (Ghaznavid, Seljuk, Khorazmian, Aq-qoyunlu, Kara-qoyunlu, Safavid, Afsharid etc.) than Mongol-influenced (Ilkhanid, Timurid).

    We actually do have some circumstantial genetic data to corroborate the historical attestation of Turkic overrepresentation among the lower levels of Mongol-related activities in W and SC Asia - The Hazara, despite speaking a variant of Dari that is heavily influenced by Mongolic (much less so by Turkic), appear to be far more Turkic-shifted than Mongolian.

    Several of us had tried to model Iranian pop averages around 2018-19 - Unfortunately, it was/(is?) impossible to distinguish between Karakhanid-Ottoman:MA2195-Karluk-type ancestry from Mongol ancestry on a group level (there's two sources of confounding).
    It is, however, possible to tease out in individuals - I do recall seeing a minority of Mazandaranis, Azeris, Kurds and Persians from Fars province prefer Mongols to the Medieval Turks. I also recall the case of an Iranian man on 23andMe whose Y-DNA O subclade is predominantly found in CE Asia (among Mongolic speakers, not Turkic).

    On the basis of the above, my position (since around 2018 or so);
    - The majority of the E. Eurasian admix in Iran is of Turkic origin (little uncertainty to me on this point given the historical records and the rationale described above)
    - There may be a somewhat even strata of Mongolian ancestry across the plateau, but it's been difficult to both distinguish and quantify it in contradistinction with Turkic admixture - (major area of uncertainty)
    - A case-by-case basis for assessing the differences, coupled with other genetic data, including Y-DNA, mtDNA, IBD scoring etc. would provide us with a better measure of the average than assessing averages themselves (little uncertainty here, guided by the G25 experience)
    - We may find "hotspots" of Mongol ancestry in certain parts of the country (e.g. the Mughan plain in Azerbaijan province) (some uncertainty here, unproven, though based on historical evidence)

    We have vital aDNA from early Mongols courtesy of Jeong et al. 2020, so a more robust appraisal (and perhaps an update of the above position) is due. Nobody's performed the analyses yet.
    Last edited by DMXX; 05-03-2021 at 09:13 AM. Reason: lines

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  13. #277
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    I'd like to add a little more to this discussion. I find it interesting how Iranians are often talked about as though they're a homogenous group when in reality, Iran is a massive country whose east to west distance spans roughly whole half of the Middle East, its northern tip extends north of the Levant and its southern tip being near Oman. On top of it, it is a highly mountainous country(mountains are known to create starker geographical genetic gradients). In the end it might turn out out that an average person from Mashhad is more genetically distant to someone from Tabriz than a person from Baghdad is to someone in Beirut considering the distance is greater.

    Getting more confirmed samples from eastern Iran is something I'm really looking forward to. I believe I saw a few that may have been from Sistan and Balochistan but so far their identity isn't confirmed. Khorasan should be interesting as well-I've seen gedmatch results from there but not G25. So far we only really have the Bandaris on G25 and the Zoroastrians from Yazd-neither are really representative of eastern Iran as a whole due to the former's higher SSA and the latter's unique origin and possible ancestry from outside Iran.

    Some have implied Mazandaranis being eastern Iranians but this isn't exactly the case. Mazandaran is smack in north-central Iran and no further east than Fars province. They just happen to be an outlier population that is unusually Iran_N rich deprived for their geographic location. This may be due to isolation which prevented them from receiving a Levant_N rich wave like other Iranians. So in a sense, they're a relic population that has high Iran_N similar to east Iranians without the associated combination of higher steppe+South Asian ancestry.

    Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
    Distance: 2.2791% / 0.02279087
    39.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    20.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    17.8 Levant_PPNB
    11.8 RUS_Samara_HG
    9.6 GEO_CHG
    1.0 AASI

    Target: Iranian_Seyyed
    Distance: 1.7177% / 0.01717676
    38.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    26.4 Levant_PPNB
    11.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    10.0 GEO_CHG
    9.6 RUS_Samara_HG
    2.8 MNG_Khovsgol_BA
    1.4 AASI

    Target: Iranian_Mazandarani
    Distance: 2.2783% / 0.02278264
    45.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    19.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    13.0 GEO_CHG
    13.0 Levant_PPNB
    7.8 RUS_Samara_HG
    1.2 AASI

    Target: Iranian_Lor
    Distance: 1.7450% / 0.01744997
    39.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    21.4 Levant_PPNB
    19.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    10.6 GEO_CHG
    7.4 RUS_Samara_HG
    1.2 MNG_Khovsgol_BA
    0.2 AASI

    Target: Iranian_Fars
    Distance: 1.9926% / 0.01992605
    37.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    20.2 Levant_PPNB
    17.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    10.8 GEO_CHG
    10.0 RUS_Samara_HG
    2.4 MNG_Khovsgol_BA
    1.2 AASI

    Target: Iranian_Bandari
    Distance: 1.3715% / 0.01371510
    51.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    14.4 Levant_PPNB
    14.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    11.6 RUS_Samara_HG
    5.2 AASI
    2.0 Yoruba
    0.6 GEO_CHG
    0.2 MNG_Khovsgol_BA

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  15. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    I'd like to add a little more to this discussion. I find it interesting how Iranians are often talked about as though they're a homogenous group when in reality, Iran is a massive country whose east to west distance spans roughly whole half of the Middle East, its northern tip extends north of the Levant and its southern tip being near Oman. On top of it, it is a highly mountainous country(mountains are known to create starker geographical genetic gradients). In the end it might turn out out that an average person from Mashhad is more genetically distant to someone from Tabriz than a person from Baghdad is to someone in Beirut considering the distance is greater.

    Getting more confirmed samples from eastern Iran is something I'm really looking forward to. I believe I saw a few that may have been from Sistan and Balochistan but so far their identity isn't confirmed. Khorasan should be interesting as well-I've seen gedmatch results from there but not G25. So far we only really have the Bandaris on G25 and the Zoroastrians from Yazd-neither are really representative of eastern Iran as a whole due to the former's higher SSA and the latter's unique origin and possible ancestry from outside Iran.

    Some have implied Mazandaranis being eastern Iranians but this isn't exactly the case. Mazandaran is smack in north-central Iran and no further east than Fars province. They just happen to be an outlier population that is unusually Iran_N rich deprived for their geographic location. This may be due to isolation which prevented them from receiving a Levant_N rich wave like other Iranians. So in a sense, they're a relic population that has high Iran_N similar to east Iranians without the associated combination of higher steppe+South Asian ancestry.

    Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
    Distance: 2.2791% / 0.02279087
    39.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    20.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    17.8 Levant_PPNB
    11.8 RUS_Samara_HG
    9.6 GEO_CHG
    1.0 AASI

    Target: Iranian_Seyyed
    Distance: 1.7177% / 0.01717676
    38.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    26.4 Levant_PPNB
    11.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    10.0 GEO_CHG
    9.6 RUS_Samara_HG
    2.8 MNG_Khovsgol_BA
    1.4 AASI

    Target: Iranian_Mazandarani
    Distance: 2.2783% / 0.02278264
    45.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    19.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    13.0 GEO_CHG
    13.0 Levant_PPNB
    7.8 RUS_Samara_HG
    1.2 AASI

    Target: Iranian_Lor
    Distance: 1.7450% / 0.01744997
    39.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    21.4 Levant_PPNB
    19.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    10.6 GEO_CHG
    7.4 RUS_Samara_HG
    1.2 MNG_Khovsgol_BA
    0.2 AASI

    Target: Iranian_Fars
    Distance: 1.9926% / 0.01992605
    37.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    20.2 Levant_PPNB
    17.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    10.8 GEO_CHG
    10.0 RUS_Samara_HG
    2.4 MNG_Khovsgol_BA
    1.2 AASI

    Target: Iranian_Bandari
    Distance: 1.3715% / 0.01371510
    51.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    14.4 Levant_PPNB
    14.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    11.6 RUS_Samara_HG
    5.2 AASI
    2.0 Yoruba
    0.6 GEO_CHG
    0.2 MNG_Khovsgol_BA
    Iranians are hetrogenous, but way more homogeneous than nearby countries like India. Most of the population is Persian but many other ethnicities also live in Iran like Balochis. Also, not all Persians are genetically identical. For example Sistani Persians and Persian Gulf Islanders.

    Do all people from Bandar Abbas (Bandaris) or Hormuzgan have SSA? I thought it was only the large Afro-Iranian population that did have SSA.

    What did you mean by Yazd Zoroastrians and their origin from outside of Iran?

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    Last edited by kingeo; 05-12-2021 at 12:42 AM. Reason: Found the answer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azbuzz View Post
    Iranians are hetrogenous, but way more homogeneous than nearby countries like India. Most of the population is Persian but many other ethnicities also live in Iran like Balochis. Also, not all Persians are genetically identical. For example Sistani Persians and Persian Gulf Islanders.

    Do all people from Bandar Abbas (Bandaris) or Hormuzgan have SSA? I thought it was only the large Afro-Iranian population that did have SSA.

    What did you mean by Yazd Zoroastrians and their origin from outside of Iran?
    1)Only due to caste related endogamy in the latter. Unique genetic profiles were preserved rather than becoming a homogenous slush with only a geographic gradient like in Europe.

    2)Target: Iranian_Bandari:BanII90
    Distance: 2.1421% / 0.02142135
    55.4 Balochi
    38.8 Iranian_Mazandarani
    5.8 Yoruba

    Target: Iranian_Bandari:BanII80
    Distance: 2.0492% / 0.02049206
    51.0 Iranian_Mazandarani
    45.8 Balochi
    3.2 Yoruba

    Target: Iranian_Bandari:BanII47
    Distance: 2.6315% / 0.02631541
    53.6 Iranian_Mazandarani
    44.6 Balochi
    1.8 Yoruba

    Target: Iranian_Bandari:BanII40
    Distance: 1.9535% / 0.01953489
    67.6 Balochi
    30.0 Iranian_Mazandarani
    2.4 Yoruba

    Target: Iranian_Bandari:BanII4
    Distance: 2.2431% / 0.02243117
    58.2 Iranian_Mazandarani
    38.0 Balochi
    3.8 Yoruba

    Target: Iranian_Bandari:BanII38
    Distance: 1.5939% / 0.01593895
    77.6 Iranian_Mazandarani
    18.4 Balochi
    4.0 Yoruba

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