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Thread: Hypothesis about the origin of Z2110 and L51 from L23

  1. #1

    Hypothesis about the origin of Z2110 and L51 from L23

    R-L51 haplotype, where we can see how R-L51 was born in Italy from R-L23* like R-Z2105 and how Irish L51 is linked to the Russian one:
    NBABJ Del Re Italy
    13 24 14 11 11 14 13 12 11 13 13 29 18 9 10 10 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 18 11 11 19 22 15 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 14 30 24
    4GW9W Baldacci Genova, Italy
    13 24 14 11 11 14 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16 10 11 19 23 15 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 13 12 14 30 25
    65X69 Bez Batti Urussanga, Santa Catarina, Brasil, Italy
    13 24 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 13 13 30 18 9 9 11 11 26 15 19 28 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 14 30 24
    B3XE5 Marchese Mera Chile
    13 24 14 11 11 15 13 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 15 18 11 11 19 23 15 11 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 14 30 25
    JC7VE Finney Londonderry, Ireland
    13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 12 13 28 18 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 30 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 38 38 12 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 14 30 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 15 11 12 12 17 8 21 21 12 11 13 12 12 12 12 9 11 15 9 16 11 10 12 12 11 10 12 12 11 11 29 26 19 12
    MNUF5 Martens Armavir, Kuban (the son), Russia
    13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 12 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 16 18 18 11 11 19 23 16 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 14 30 24
    This is the presumed modal of R-L51:
    5KDKE R-L51+ Modal Unknown
    13 24 14 11 11 14 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 36 37 12 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 13 14 31 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 9 11 14 9 16 11 10 12 13 11 10 12 12 11 11 27 26 19 12

    If we start from a DYS464= 14-15-16-18,
    we have:
    NBABJ Del Re Italy 15-15-16-18 with a mutation in DYS464a from 14 to 15
    4GW9W Baldacci Genova, Italy 15-15-16-16 with a mutation in DYSA464d from 18 to 17 and after from 17 to 16 and a mutation in 464a from 14 to 15
    65X69 Bez Batti Urussanga, Santa Catarina, Brasil, Italy 14-15-17-17 with a mutation in DYS464d from 18 to 17 and in DYS464C from 16 to 17
    B3XE5 Marchese Mera Chile 14-15-15-18 with a mutation in DYS464c from 16 to 15
    JC7VE Finney Londonderry, Ireland 15-15-17-18 with a mutation in DYS464a from 14 to 15 and in DYS464c from 16 to 17
    MNUF5 Martens Armavir, Kuban (the son), Russia 15-16-18-18 with probably a recLOH from 14-15-16-18 to 15-16-18-18
    Last edited by Rathna; 02-04-2014 at 11:06 AM.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Rathna For This Useful Post:

     Silesian (02-04-2014)

  3. #2
    This for whom has some doubt to see the link between the Irish L51 and the Russian one:

    JC7VE Finney Londonderry, Ireland
    13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 12 13 28 18 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 30 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 38 38 12 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 14 30 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 15 11 12 12 17 8 21 21 12 11 13 12 12 12 12 9 11 15 9 16 11 10 12 12 11 10 12 12 11 11 29 26 19 12
    MNUF5 Martens Armavir, Kuban (the son), Russia
    13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 12 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 16 18 18 11 11 19 23 16 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 14 30 24

    - - - Updated - - -

    Where it is clear how all these L51 come from Italy (see Martignago)

    MNUF5 Martens Armavir, Kuban (the son), Russia
    13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 12 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 16 18 18 11 11 19 23 16 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 14 30 24
    9GUM5 Whiteside Ireland
    13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 13 12 13 28 18 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 16 17 18 11 10 19 23 16 15 17 17 38 39 12 12 12 11 11 15 23 10 14 12 12 14 30 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 15 10 12 12 17 8 21 22 12 11 13 12 12 12 12
    BWZZ9 Finney Derry/Londonderry, Northern Ireland
    13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 12 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 30 15 15 17 18 11 10 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 39 12 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 14 30 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 15 11 12 12 17 8 21 21 12 11 13 12 12 12 12 9 11 15 9 16 11 10 12 12 11 10 12 12 11 11 29 26 19 12
    JC7VE Finney Londonderry, Ireland
    13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 12 13 28 18 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 30 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 38 38 12 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 14 30 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 15 11 12 12 17 8 21 21 12 11 13 12 12 12 12 9 11 15 9 16 11 10 12 12 11 10 12 12 11 11 29 26 19 12
    TDM4D Martignago Treviso, Italy
    13 24 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 16 17 18 11 11 19 23 15 12 12 11 11 13 24 10 13 13 12 14 30 24
    and that DYS464 of Martignago (15-16-17-18 from 14-15-16-18) is explaining only presupposing the recLOH of Martens and after the mutation in DYS464c from 18 to 17.
    Last edited by Rathna; 02-05-2014 at 09:15 AM.

  4. #3
    This for the origin of the Martens
    Additional information about Paternal Line:
    My earliest known ancestor went by the last name Abrahams, but my families surname changed to Abrams since migration to Canada.

    And these the haplotypes:
    TQ2AQ Abrams Bonhoefferfeld, Preußen/Prussia, Germany
    13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 12 13 27 17 9 10 11 10 24 15 19 29 15 16 17 18 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 36 39 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 16 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 15 10 12 12 16 8 21 21 12 11 13 12 12 12 12
    5C46Y Martens Russia
    13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 12 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 16 18 18
    MNUF5 Martens Armavir, Kuban (the son), Russia
    13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 12 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 16 18 18 11 11 19 23 16 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 14 30 24
    Q4FD7 Martens Russia
    13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 12 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 16 18 18 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 36 39 12 12

    P.S. DYS464 of Abrams 15 16 17 18 from the other closely linked 15 16 18 18 demonstrates once more that my hypothesis about Martignago was right, of course for an independent mutation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    About the origin of the Italian L51 and the "Baltic" one of course other investigations do need. We cannot exclude that, like for L11*, many Italian haplotypes have came back with Germans, even though about an origin of L51 in Italy I'd have a few doubts.
    Last edited by Rathna; 02-05-2014 at 09:55 AM.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    JC7VE Finney Londonderry, Ireland 15-15-17-18 with a mutation in DYS464a from 14 to 15 and in DYS464c from 16 to 17
    Finney's DYS464= 15-15-17-18 may be explained also so:
    1) 14-15-16-18
    2) 15-16-18-18 (recLOH)
    3) 15-16-17-18 (9GUM5: Whiteside)
    4) 15-15-17-18

  6. #5
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    My DYS454X is 15c-16c-17c-18g. Your recLOH in #2 may not be; without this test, the normal 454 test reports low to high counts, not the actual G position, or a recLOH ccGG.

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     Rathna (03-19-2014)

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