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Thread: E-V13 in Bulgarian Iron Age

  1. #521
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    If this turns out to be true, then original IE proto-Illyrians were some Y-DNA R1a people or Corded Ware R1b?

    A lot of things are unclear.

    This is from Maria Gimbutas.



    Source Link

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  3. #522
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    Unetice had already a more complex mixture of BB, CW and more SEE, Carparthian, farmer shifted ancestry. It was a complex phenomenon which is hard to pin down and I even thought about it spreading I1 and a kind of pre-Germanic dialect to the Nordic Bronze Age shortly before it collapsed.

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  5. #523
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    I continued reading the opinion of Marija Gimbutas regarding Late Bronze Age and i must say she had some very interesting theories, especially Vatin related cultures. I think she was right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Either that, or there was an early Corded Ware-TCC/Lengyel related hybrid group. If Nitra had indeed one of the first E-V13 in ancient DNA, and it showed increased farmer ancestry, but still a solid CWC base, this means it could have been the Western end of a mixed sphere. Further to the East more is to be assumed. Also, like I wrote before, its remarkable how many E-lineages survived in Central Europe. Its not just E-V13, but it was just the most successful, riding on a wave, on a dispersion event and that's most likely connected to Southern Urnfield, which is the point.
    What are other sizeable E lineages in Central Europe that derive from farmers?

  7. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    What are other sizeable E lineages in Central Europe that derive from farmers?
    Just as an example, from Austrian samples, Upper Austria:
    E1b1b M123>M34> M84 1 0.44%
    E1b1b M123>M34> Z841 2 0.88%
    E1b1b V22 2 0.88%
    Tyrol:
    E1a M132 1 0.77%
    E1b1b > V13 7 5.38%
    E1b1b > V134811 1 0.77%
    E1b1b L67 1 0.77%
    E1b1b L674838 1 0.77%
    E1b1b M123>M34> M84 1 0.77%
    E1b1b V1515 1 0.77%
    E1b1b V257> PF2431 1 0.77%
    Reutte:
    E1a M132 2 0.77%
    E1b1a V38>> M4231 1 0.38%
    E1b1b > V13 14 5.36%
    E1b1b L67 2 0.77%
    E1b1b M123>M34> M84 1 0.38%
    E1b1b V1515 1 0.38%
    E1b1b V22 4 1.53%
    From this thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....NA-haplogroups

    I have to confess, I was rather surprised that E-V13 was not more dominant in Austria.

    The situation seems to be pretty similar in the Czech Republic and Hungary. Czech overview: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....al-Differences

    An example for an interesting subclade:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC2726/

  8. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Just as an example, from Austrian samples, Upper Austria:


    Tyrol:


    Reutte:


    From this thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....NA-haplogroups

    I have to confess, I was rather surprised that E-V13 was not more dominant in Austria.

    The situation seems to be pretty similar in the Czech Republic and Hungary. Czech overview: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....al-Differences

    An example for an interesting subclade:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC2726/
    In your experience, what is the ratio between E-V13 and other E lineages(derived from farmers, not later migrations from Africa or the Near East) in Central Europe and the Balkans? Given what you said about Austria it seems that the 1:1 ratio is an extreme.

  9. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    In your experience, what is the ratio between E-V13 and other E lineages(derived from farmers, not later migrations from Africa or the Near East) in Central Europe and the Balkans? Given what you said about Austria it seems that the 1:1 ratio is an extreme.
    Definitely not 1:1 in most places and samples, rather 2:1 to 3:1 and a good portion of the other E might be from later migrants from MENA. Rafc is actually more competent on the issue. Closer to 1:1 it is in Southern Italy:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post723433

    So the ratio of increases and gets more equal from North to South. But the point is, looking at the distribution even up to regions which never were under Roman rule and being Slavic dominated, other clades of E1b1b appear too. How much of this is older or younger is hard to determine without the exact subclades in question.

  10. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    Anatolian is very easy to score in the Balkans area at a small percentage. Southern Italians also score it, do you think they had any super recent Anatolian admixture?
    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    What that means is that the Anatolian category itself has Greek & Balkan inside it, along with Central Asian and actual Anatolian of course. Scoring it doesn't mean you have Turkish admixture, as there are many people without any Central Asian who also score it.
    Sorry for late answer.

    I analyzed this Anatolian segment I have on 23andme and Gedmatch calculators read it as Turk_DA228, Nomad_Medieval_DA124, Kipchak, AFG_Tajik, Iranian and Turkmen, I do not think it is somehow through non-Central Asian admixture. This segment is clearly of Turkic origin, it has high West Asian, South Asian and some Siberian, maybe ancient Bulgar, I would not be suprised, if it was Turkish/Turkic according to area, where my Bulgarian ancestors lived, even due to confession, which I am sure it was not such important, that there were not even rare cases of intermixing.

    I also checked big amount of my Balkan matches and nobody has this category, except my Silistra Bulgarian match has about 15% of it, I think I should not tell you about populations, who live in that province
    Target: Cyryl_scaled
    Distance: 2.2889% / 0.02288949
    88.0 Proto_Slavic
    8.2 Hellenic_Roman
    3.8 Medieval_Germanic


    Target: Cyryl_mom_scaled
    Distance: 3.1381% / 0.03138134
    85.2 Proto_Slavic
    14.8 Hellenic_Roman

  11. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Particularly interesting to me is Ligurians, they have like 17.5/18% of E1b1b, and i think most of it is E-V13 (Garibaldi is the most famous Ligurian who supposedly was E-V13). That's quite high. We don't know their subclades, if they are Late Bronze Age Hallstatt comers, like the La Tene sample or earlier migrants. Lots of question marks, and empty spaces, hence wide varieties of hypothesis.
    I mentioned this before. Almost all of those Ligurians are E-FGC11450 including the tested Garibaldi. There is no V13 diversity there. The artificially increased V13 percentage is due to bottleneck effect. This is seen at FTDNA, this is seen in another two studies where V13 jumps in percentage there, almost all are FGC11450. Not sure how old is this bottleneck, I suppose it might reach Antiquity.

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  13. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    I mentioned this before. Almost all of those Ligurians are E-FGC11450 including the tested Garibaldi. There is no V13 diversity there. The artificially increased V13 percentage is due to bottleneck effect. This is seen at FTDNA, this is seen in another two studies where V13 jumps in percentage there, almost all are FGC11450. Not sure how old is this bottleneck, I suppose it might reach Antiquity.
    Apuglians have this FGC11450 as well, it certainly looks a spread within the context of Urnfield.

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